[BilboBagend]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3mtDC2fQo

[Grog]

Are intelligent design and evolution mutually exclusive? It can be only one or the other?

[johnforbes]

Tyson does make some great chicken!

[elklindo69]

Intelligent design is a way to subvertly teach religion in the public schools, becsuse it would be a violation of the constitution to teach religion in public schools. Religion and science are two distinct fields of studies.

Unlike Catholics, protestants don't have their schools. So they try to get intelligent design into the school system, because a fundamentalist Christian will not send their kids to Catholic school. But if they want to learn about religion they should have their own private religious programs..

[RealJustme]

Intelligent design is a way to subvertly teach in the public schools.

:roll:

[Grog]

Why does the notion of "intelligent design" have to be shackled to religion? I understand that religious people, especially conservatives, believe the Biblical God in the Biblical kingdom created the universe in six days, about 5000 year ago. You are not going to disabuse them of that malarkey.

I'm just wondering why you can't step beyond your own prejudices and ignorance and consider the possibility that evolution and creationism, from a secular standpoint, are reasonable explanations and are compatible.

Is it not possible that life started evolving here, and elsewhere, but received some nudges from intelligent designers? That is far more likely than pure evolution or pure creationism.

If you don't believe or understand that, then continue to support OWS.

[Clownkicker]

"Is it not possible that life started evolving here, and elsewhere, but received some nudges from intelligent designers? "-Grog

Hey, I saw that Star Trek Next Generation episode.
Did you write that one, Grog?

[johnforbes]

Speaking of Tyson, Clownhicker is chicken-chested.

[BilboBagend]

1) Intelligent design is NOT science. The creationists who rebranded creationism as intelligent design have admitted so in their internal documents as di9scovered and released in court.

2) Those documents prove that intelligent design is creationism rebranded.

3) Those documents prove that ID is not science by their own admission that they have no testable theory. If fact no theory at all.

Thus, the question ID or evolution is a non-question. Their is only one science in the question, evolution.

Now, can it be that God created the earth and the universe? Of course. Is there currently a science to prove or disprove that assertion? No. Thus, it can neither be proved nor disproved. That is it can not currently be studied. There are no proposed objective observations that can be made.

Can creationism be correct? No by scientific methods. By scientific methods it is totally false. The earth was NOT objectively created in 7 literal days.

Did God create the universe as described by the best scientific theories that are available? That is not an objective question that can be answered by any current know science. Does the bible correctly describe the creation of the universe in metaphorical terms. Yes, if you so believe. Can you rationally prove that it does?: I donlt know. How does one prove metaphores are correct or incorrect? You come up with a method, and I guess you can prove what you want to prove within a metaphorical construct.

Evolution: science not religion.

ID/Craetionism: religious belief, not science


Not there is one proof possible within the world of creationism/ID. Those who created ID and lie and say that creationism is NOT ID are by their own words Satanists, knowingly speaking falsely about God's words.

[Grog]

Clownkicker, you consider that notion to be science fiction, fantasy, perhaps even absurd?

Do you believe there are, or might be other more advanced civilizations out there capable of interstellar travel and manipulating genetics, amongst other things some people might consider to be magic?

What do you think a person from the 19th century might think of your iPhone, or whatever you use? Do you think they might consider it magic? What might someone from the 19th century think of an Airbus A380 crossing the Atlantic ocean in a few hours, sorcery? What about a vaccine that prevents polio, necromancy?

[BilboBagend]

This guy understands the difficulty of speaking with rationality with evolution deniers, climate deniers, science deniers, birthers, bigots, racists, Obama haters, teagaggers, anti-education, paranoid conspiracy freaks, and all the worst of our society. Funny how they are all pretty much the same people. Especially as evidenced here.


http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=3482

[BilboBagend]

Grog, do you have a objectively testable theory on how we can determine when and how these aliens created the earth in 7 days and deposited all that evidence to lie to us?

[Grog]

Who said extraterrestrials created the universe in seven days? As has been noted, that's Biblical malarkey (and it was six days, their God rested on the seventh).

You're a rather, perhaps exceptionally myopic lil feller who's as hidebound to his beliefs as the thumpers are to theirs.

[BilboBagend]

LOL, when it comes to science and/or objectivity, I am open to all.

As I said, come up with a theory. Other than that, it's your fantasy. There are rational philosophical arguments and discussions possible and available outside the purely objective empirical scientific world. They are certainly beyond the scope on anyone I have seen here. Rationality and logic have not been well accepted on this site. Fantasies are great. Just understand that they are fantasies. Much good science has started as fantasy. Though, one must admit, it always comes back to a rationally observable and predictable world view to become reality.

ID is dishonest bullshit up until the point that it comes up with something other than dishonest bullshit. But, anything outside dishonest bullshit is not the point or goal of ID. I will not hold my breath waiting for either honesty or objective reality to come from the ID camp. If they were either rational or honest they would stick to the belief part and stay out of the pseudo-science part of creation. At last they are neither religious nor scientific, just political.

[Grog]

One of the many characteristics shared by extremists from both ends of the political spectrum is that you people are primarily two dimensional thinkers. To you people everything is black/white, right/wrong, good/bad. You're extremists because you think it in extremes that are framed by a very corridor.

You people on both ends have more than a tendency to start with belief and then find or create your own facts to support your beliefs instead of the other way around.

The universe is around 14 billion years old. That's an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless. The Earth is around 4 billion years old. That's a difference of 10 billion years.

Think about the scientific progress mankind has made in the last few hundred years. Are you able to extrapolate what that means in regard to this discussion?

For bonus points (and you may use your magic Google machine), who said: The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.

[RealJustme]

LOL, when it comes to science and/or objectivity, I am open to all.

No you're not. There are so many things on this earth that defy science that I'm open to other intelligent cause sources being involved. Sure there is natural selection involved, but there is more than our little human brains can digest. There are those who feel intelligent design is not science because their little human brains can't develop a hypothesis to explain it.

I'm not saying there is a man with a long beard in the sky looking down at us deciding who goes to heaven or hell but there are undeniable forces involved that defy explanation. Those who exclude that possibility are uneducated or biased. A scientist who claims science as we know it today, can explain everything is an idiot and not a real scientist.

Carlos

[BilboBagend]

Am I intolerant?

Why, yes.

Why?

Because 2+2=4. Not really a subject for discussion.

Well, we could discuss it. 2+2 could equal 3. But, then, either 3 would be 4, or 2 would be 1.5. Not very useful. Or we could be in an entire field of pure meaningless bullshit. Not very useful.

2+2=4 is based on a few self imposed arbitrary definitions that help us describe and understand the universe. Well, not completely arbitrary, as they do help use understand the universe and make pragmatic predictions that improve our lives.

We could throw it all out, or we could understand what we are talking about. There is a great deal that is possible to rationally discuss without reverting to the idiocy of thinking that we are the masters of the universe and it bends to our delusions, or that what you want to believe is reality even though to conflicts with objective observations.

ID, not science
Evolution, science

In reality, nothing to discuss at this point. It's been done. There is absolutely no physical objective observable evidence to the contrary. That is not to say anything like we know it all, nor that we know even a great deal of what there is to know about the universe.

[johnforbes]

Bilbo, you can tolerate all forms of diversity except a diverse idea.

Like most liberals, you are a slave to ideology.

That's why you erupt in rage, and call names, the very instant you encounter any opinion at variance from liberal orthodoxy.

[RealJustme]

Bilbo, you can tolerate all forms of diversity except a diverse idea.

Like most liberals, you are a slave to ideology.

Bingo!

Bilbo, does the universe end and if so how? There is a reason the human brain can't comprehend something never ends, some things just can't be explained.

[Grog]

For the purpose of clarification and accuracy, Bilbo is not a liberal. He is a leftist, he's the mirror image of you guys. And you all deserve each other. That's what this board has become: two extremist groups shouting and shrieking and trolling each other constantly.

Bilbo is unable to untangle the notion of intelligent beings designing and improving things from the mythology of Biblical creationism.

[BilboBagend]

Sorry grog, regardless of your delusions I am not what you hope I am.

Intelligent design? What have I actually said.

1) the ID/Creationist movement is a political fraud perpetrated by Satanists as per their own religious dogma.

2) There is no current objective evidence to suspect an alien intelligent design origin of the earth or the universe.

What have I not said that you ascribe to me

3) That there is no possibility for an intelligent designer origin of the earth or the universe.

There simply is no scientific need for such a theory. No objective physical evidence or scientific theory that makes considering such a possibility a rational choice in science. Science only seeks to explain and predict objectively observable physical phenomena.

Sorry, I am not responsible for your dishonest rhetoric or your delusional fantasies. That is all you.

[Grog]

I don't hope or care anything about you. What I do know about you is that you've proven yourself countless times to be nothing more than a shrill extremist who is profoundly incapable of even peering outside the tiny ideological and dogmatic box where you live and fester and seethe.

I don't expect you to be able to grasp the notion of anything beyond the tiny constructs shrouding your jaundiced mind. You obviously inhabit a coloring book world and you have only black and white crayons at your disposal. You mistakenly believe that you know everything and if you don't already believe it, it's not worth knowing or considering or imagining.

Why don't you quit wasting your valuable time and worldly knowledge here and join an OWS sit in, preferably holding your breath until the wealthy give up their wealth simply because you demanded it.




P.S. When you use the word "Satanist" as anything other than the punchline for a joke, you've exposed a lot more about yourself than your mind can fathom. Scalia has the same problem, once again proving that in many ways you extremists from either end are more alike than not.

[BilboBagend]

Please grog, get it straight.

Shrill rational objective moderate. Against idiocy, dishonesty, ignorance. Especially when self imposed.

If you have a problem, that is, if the foo shits, that's your problem. Get an education. Start thinking.

Intelligent design has a great place in our society. Philosophy. Religion.

It belongs not in science or government. ID in government is a killer of economies and a killer of people. ID in science is a destructive lie.

Believe what you want. Continue your idiocy. You obviously now know how much of an idiot you are. Thus you shrill response to reason and objectivity.

[BilboBagend]

BTW grog, do you have any idea what you object to.

Satanist? An accurate description. The ID people have been caught with documents which clearly demonstrated that they have lied about ID. They lied when they said it was not creationism and they said so in their own documents. They lied when they said it was a scientific theory and they said so in their own documents. The evidence is all available in their own trial against science. As I have said many times, Satanist is their description for what they have done. Lie in God's name. Provide false testimony about God in God's name.

Their are two types of supporters of the teach ID in science classes, frauds and dupes. No person of Christian faith would care about ID being taught in science classes. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus and everything to do with snake oil sales. Sellers and buyers.

[Grog]

When have you ever exhibited reason and objectivity?

All you've ever done here is stomp and snort and scream like a petulant, tantrum-throwing child.

You can't even peer out from under your veil to even consider the possibility of ID. Like you do on everything else, you make a pronouncement and then become enraged when someone merely asks you about the subject. "How dare they?!" You constantly talk and spout absolutes about everything, even, hell, especially subjects that are nothing more than opinion. Yet you always have bellowing certainty that only you know the absolute truth, even when it doesn't exist.

That's how and why Justme and Forbes have so much fun with you: they wind you up like a top and laugh while watching you careen all over the place.

While it's faintly amusing at times, it's more tedious.

[BilboBagend]

Among ignorant and dishonest people it would appear as you describe. No doubt.

Among thoughtful and honest people it would appear otherwise.

[Grog]

You have an enormous capacity for self-delusion.

As you've demonstrated countless times, you are certain the only thoughtful and honest people are the ones who agree with you. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant at best, Satanic at worst.

Despite what you may say next, your general attitude appears to reflect a pretty difficult and unhappy life. Do you ever stop to think that perhaps you, not everyone else, is chiefly responsible for your unhappiness? Do you approach everything in your life with such absolute certitude of your infallible correctness?

[elklindo69]

Well first it was called creationism. When it didn't work, they repackaged creationism as intelligent design. What exactly is the subject matter? OK, people want to hypothesise that aliens seeded the earth or whatever. Fine, where is the proof. You need some kind of observation to develop a hypothesis. They claim space aliens built the pyramids, but there is no proof. None of the hyroglifics have pictures of space aliens or starships?

At least when they teach theology, God exists, and the study involves and understanding of the scriptures and how people relate to each other and God. And it's a legitimate field of study, because there is a significant amount of documentation that has been recovered and authenticated.

[RealJustme]

What's your hypothesis Elk?

[BilboBagend]

Gee grog, try some more false assumptions about what I said and what I think.

I am talking about the founders and propagators of creationism and ID. The evidence is out there for you to read.

[BilboBagend]

I'm sorry grog. Are you one of the frauds or one of the dupes?

[Grog]

Elk, use your Google machine to search something like "spaceships in ancient art."

Naturally, there is some crackpot stuff you and Bilbo can cherry pick, if you're so inclined.

Good luck and enjoy.







Bilbo, like everything else in your world, I'm whatever you want me to be. I mean, who can argue with you?

[RealJustme]

Grog, you're letting Bilbo get under you skin, chill dude and he'll go away!

[Grog]

He's not getting under my skin any more than you do, and that's not at all. I find both of you (twin sons of different ideological mothers with diametrically opposed temperaments) to be a little amusing and entertaining from time to time.



How goes the search, Elk? Or is it complete waste of your time, unworthy of a few laborious keystrokes?

[RealJustme]

He's not getting under my skin any more than you do, and that's not at all.

That's like saying "I'm not going to talk to you", why do we get under your skin? This whole political board is about tweaking people for entertainment.

Watch this:

Palin, Palin, Palin

[sillydaddy]

Well, whoever came up with the idea of pussy.....you can be my God !

[brandon]

Wow, Dick is sober. I haven't seen this in years.

What he said.

TTT

BTW... fuck you,... you sick, old pedophile freak motherfucker.

[BilboBagend]

Some crackpot stuff in ID. Well let's see? Oh, the basic premiss that ID has ANYTHING to do with science is a totally crackpot dishonesty. End of Story.

Thinking there is any other possibility reveals something lacking in the person who thinks ID has anything to do with science. Something seriously wrong with that person.

"God created the earth and all the heavens". Religious belief. Only religious belief.

Now how would one move that into the world of science. 1) Propose a theory on how to prove the existence of God through objective physical observations, 2) make those observations, 3) compare those obse4rvations to the predictions of the theory, 4) adjust the theory to include significant phenomena not included in the previous version of the theory, greater detail, 5) make new predictions based on the new more complete theory, 6) make new objective physical observations, make new comparisons of observations to predictions, iterate, iterate. Make final determination when statistics show high reliability of conclusions. Submit to peer review and criticism. Community will examine physical phenomena on which theory is based,m quality of observations, predictions, fit , and statistics. Iterate, iterate, iterate. Most of community will eventually agree or theory will be thrown out.

Then, repeat for God based creation.

Failing this process or with no objective physically observable predictions, it's not science. End of Story.

It may be great religion,and/or great philosophy, Just not science.

Then there is the very real issue that the ID people had internally documented that they KNEW their "theory" was not science and that it WAS creationism (religion). Documents easily available to those who actually want to know the truth. A simple Google search did the job long, long ago.

Then there is the very real other side of the coin. Science does not have any method to say that God does not exist and did not create the universe. Science only deals with physical phenomena. Someday science may be able to address some aspect of a "God"/"Superior being" issue. But not before there is some PHYSICAL reason to suspect that only an intelligent being could have "done" "it".

When one knows better, one does not suspect that the apple could only have been thrown down from the tree by a superior, unseen, and unseeable being and always at the same rate of acceleration in the same direction. One suspects some universal physical phenomena. And mankind progresses, rather than regresses into a set of unexplainable, independent accidents caused by an unexplainable and unknowable being who demands human blood sacrifices performed by a very human bully who is the only one who knows God's true will.

I have great faith in God, I also know the results caused by those who seek religious power over others, falsely claiming that THEY have God's attention and KNOW more than the rest of us about God's will.

Those are the issues.

[Grog]

My "crackpot" comment was specifically referencing a Google search specifically for Elk to specifically search for images of "spaceships in ancient art."

There are also plenty of crackpot ideas involved in the larger ID issue, see Holy Bible for disambiguation.


Anyway, you said you have "great faith in God." Faith in God to be and/or do what?






Young Brandon: http://www.toysrus.com/shop/index.jsp?c ... Id=2255956" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It's never too early to start with your Merry Holidays wish list. You're welcome!

[Clownkicker]

"Clownkicker, you consider that notion to be science fiction, fantasy,...?"-Grog

Of course I do. (And yes, Star Trek did a story on this very thing, but for a different reason.)
As there are no data to support such speculation, the notion is the very definition of speculative fiction.
If you think about it, like Star Trek it's fun and thought provoking.
If you believe it, you're no better than a militant Muslim or new age convention goer buying crystals and copper bracelets to cure your cancer..


"What do you think a person from the 19th century might think of your iPhone, or whatever you use? Do you think they might consider it magic? What might someone from the 19th century think of an Airbus A380 crossing the Atlantic ocean in a few hours, sorcery? What about a vaccine that prevents polio, necromancy?"-Grog

There's no need to get insulting about it.
To continue to address me like a RealTool simpleton will leave me no alternative but to ask you if you've ever read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court or heard the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or heard of Ockham's razor.
(You wouldn't like that very much, would you? It would suggest that I thought you were an idiot.)

As it is, you all must simply realize that on this subject Bilbo (whatever you think of him) is correct.
Intelligent Design could conceivably be the truth of things, but it is not science.
(ID is completely unnecessary and unhelpful in explaining the world we see. The universe is much more interesting. But hey, knock yourself out. I like a good story as much as the next guy.)
Anyone who pretends ID is science is only, like johnforbes, exhibiting his ignorance of the meaning of the word "science".
I just didn't think you would be among them, Grog.

[RealJustme]

Intelligent Design could conceivably be the truth of things, but it is not science.

Clown who ever claimed intelligent design was a science? It goes far beyond science my friend just as the universe does.

[BilboBagend]

Really, by what objective observation?

[RealJustme]

Really, by what objective observation?

Bilbo, define what you consider objective observation.

[johnforbes]

Elkin used the word "subvertly" but intended to say "covertly."

One important function of this forum is to educate young liberals like Elkin.

[BilboBagend]

justupid

"object"

"observe"

Please, go learn something on your own. Try Wiktionary or Merriams.

[Grog]

I'll get back to you later, Clownkicker.

Right now I'd like Bilbo to talk about his God that he has great faith in. Again, great faith to do or be what?

[elklindo69]

My "crackpot" comment was specifically referencing a Google search specifically for Elk to specifically search for images of "spaceships in ancient art."

There are also plenty of crackpot ideas involved in the larger ID issue, see Holy Bible for disambiguation.


Anyway, you said you have "great faith in God." Faith in God to be and/or do what?






Young Brandon: http://www.toysrus.com/shop/index.jsp?c ... Id=2255956" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It's never too early to start with your Merry Holidays wish list. You're welcome!

If spaceships ever visited the earth, and helped build the pyramids as some people claim, then we would certainly know without a doubt...

[johnforbes]

Elkin, please get a dictionary and look up "covertly."

This will help you utilize the word correctly in the future, so you will gain something from this forum.

[Grog]

Think there might be some really old and grainy 8mm footage from 5000 B.C., Elk?

Did you do the search like I suggested, "Spaceships in ancient art?"