Political discussions about everything
#126237
WOW, just think of how may people were denied the use to the drug Trump recommended be tried but the media and Democrats claim it was dangerous and should not be used.
Researchers at the Henry Ford Health System in Southeast Michigan have found that early administration of the drug hydroxychloroquine makes hospitalized patients substantially less likely to die. The study, published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases, determined that hydroxychloroquine provided a "66% hazard ratio reduction," and hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin a 71 percent reduction, compared to neither treatment.

In-hospital mortality was 18.1 percent with both drugs, 13.5 percent with just hydroxychloroquine, 22.4 percent with azithromycin alone, and 26.4 percent with neither drug. "Prospective trials are needed" for further review, the researchers note.

The International Journal of Infectious Diseases said the study was the first full study of the use hydroxychloroquine to fight COVID-19. They added the study is fully supported by scientific data along with enough trials to validate the findings.
#126238
As always, RealTool opens his thread with a lie and then he continues with a partial truth. Fauci didn't apologize, obviously. We know this because RealTool said he DID. Plus the fact that there was nothing to apologize for.

Now, if RealTool had bothered to read the rest of the story---

"Researchers not involved with the study were critical. They noted that the Henry Ford team did not randomly treat patients but selected them for various treatments based on certain criteria.

"As the Henry Ford Health System became more experienced in treating patients with COVID-19, survival may have improved, regardless of the use of specific therapies," Dr. Todd Lee of the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal, Canada, and colleagues wrote in a commentary in the same journal.

"Finally, concomitant steroid use in patients receiving hydroxychloroquine was more than double the non-treated group. This is relevant considering the recent RECOVERY trial that showed a mortality benefit with dexamethasone." The steroid dexamethasone can reduce inflammation in seriously ill patients.

The Henry Ford team wrote that 82% of their patients received hydroxychloroquine within the first 24 hours of admission, and 91% within the first 48 hours of admission.
They wrote that in comparison, a study of patients at 25 New York hospitals started taking the drug "at any time during their hospitalization."
But patients in that New York study, published in May in the Journal of the American Medical Association, started taking hydroxychloroquine on average one day after being hospitalized.

"Maybe there's a little bit of a difference, but it's not like patients in New York were being started on day seven. That's not what happened," said Eli Rosenberg, lead author of the New York study and an associate professor of epidemiology at the University at Albany School of Public Health.

Rosenberg also pointed out that the Detroit paper excluded 267 patients -- nearly 10% of the study population -- who had not yet been discharged from the hospital.
He said this might have skewed the results to make hydroxychloroquine look better than it really was. Those patients might have still been in the hospital because they were very sick, and if they died, excluding them from the study made hydroxychloroquine look like more of a lifesaver than it really was.

Both the Detroit and New York studies were observational: they looked back at how patients did when doctors prescribed hydroxychloroquine.
While helpful, observational studies are not as valuable as controlled clinical trials. Considered the gold standard in medicine, patients in a clinical trial are randomly assigned to take either the drug or a placebo, which is a treatment that does nothing. Doctors then follow the patients to see how they fare.

Two clinical trials on hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19, one in the US and one in the UK, were stopped early because their data suggested hydroxychloroquine wasn't helpful.
The US trial, run by the National Institutes of Health[/u], enrolled more than 470 patients. [I told johnforbes this was the reason for discontinuing the NIH study and he called me a liar.]
The UK trial, run by the University of Oxford, enrolled more than 11,000 patients.
"We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalized with COVID-19," the Oxford doctors concluded. "

Tool, you should know by now that your handlers NEVER tell you the whole truth. They only tell you the part that supports your partisan mental illness and starts you running around drooling and voting for Trump.
#126245
Dimwit, arguing FOR science is not arguing AGAINST anything but voodoo medicine.

Inexplicably, you keep arguing FOR HCQ without any reason whatsoever to do so.


"Some of us just want something to work to save lives,..."-johnflubs

As I said, johnny. you can "want"and "wish" all you like, but it won't cure anyone, no matter how long you do it. You can repeatedly drone on how you would "like" the world to produce unicorns and lollipops. But it won't just because you "want" it or "wish" it.

Unlike you, I just want something that is proven safe and effective to save lives. Like a Trump-supporter, you just want something that you can swallow to make you think you are doing something even if it kills you instead.

All over the world, HCQ and zinc are either WORKING or NOT WORKING to combat covid. johnforbes doesn't know and nobodyt else knows either.

But one thing we all know right now is that there is no clinical study that shows it works or that it is safe. Indications are that it doesn't and it isn't. Another thing we all know is that this bugs the shit out of johnforbes because he can't crow about how great Trump is for recklessly prescribing it to masses of people without a license.
#126247
"It has been scientifically proven it saves lives, ..."-RealTool

Once again RealTool demonstrates that he doesn't understand science.

An "observational study" doesn't "scientifically prove" anything, dimwit. You made it up.
Observational studies just give indications about what you might want to study in a future clinical trial which can actually scientifically prove something works.


"...why are liberals so against allowing people to use a drug that may also save their lives?"-RealTool

The real question is, why are conservatives so strongly FOR allowing people to use a drug that is not proven safe or effective and that apparently has deadly side effects for some?

No liberal has ever stopped scientists from running trials on HCQ except when indications were that patient mortality was higher with the treatment than without the treatment, as in the NIH study. RealTool and johnforbes are free to spend several million dollars of their own money running HCQ trials with my hearty support. They both seem to have a death wish, so as a liberal I'm all for them taking HCQ if they really "want" to take cheap, unproven drugs. I hear LSD is fairly cheap and very effective if they want to experience a U.S. run by Trump for four more years.
#126263
RealJustme wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:38 pm
Inexplicably, you keep arguing FOR HCQ without any reason whatsoever to do so.
It has been scientifically proven it saves lives, why are liberals so against allowing people to use a drug that may also save their lives? It's the cheapest possible treatment and liberals aren't willing to pay for the treatment.
It (I assume you are referring to Hydroxychloroquine) for the treatment of COVID-19, has NOT been scientifically been proven to be effective or safe.

It's not what I say....it's what the FDA says.
#126271
Testing in some areas has been suspended.

The truth is that it is a shame that ALL of the therapy methods have not been put to a genuine, long test.

I'm making a point which leftists should be making, but the big money drug from Gilead has clearly been pushed by Fauci and others, while downplaying the cheap drug HCQ with a 66-year record (albeit not for covid).

Pretending there is some big cardiac risk from HCQ is nonsense, and there is the cardiac and dosing info from decades as an anti-malarial to prove that part of this.
#126276
TRUMP APOLOGIZES TO FAUCI, NOW ADMITS HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE DOES NOT SAVE LIVES

“Today’s preliminary results from the RECOVERY trial are quite clear – hydroxychloroquine does not reduce the risk of death among hospitalized patients with this new disease,” University of Oxford epidemiologist Martin Landray, one of the study’s leaders, said in a statement. “This result should change medical practice worldwide and demonstrates the importance of large, randomized trials to inform decisions about both the efficacy and the safety of treatments.”

A total of 1,542 received hydroxychloroquine, and 3,132 received usual care. After 28 days of treatment, 25.7% of those on hydroxychloroquine and 23.5% of those received usual care had died, meaning those on hydroxychloroquine were 11% more likely to die. That difference was not statistically significant.

There was “no beneficial effect” on how long patients stayed in the hospital, or on other outcomes."-statnews
#126287
Then stick with the science and stop prematurely supporting Trump's recklessly prescribing untested drugs to the American public.

Do that and you will understand what it means to be a liberal instead of a Republican tool. You will have the peace of mind that making decisions based on being rationally informed brings one before making life-changing decisions for people.
#126349
We don't have the sort of longitudinal evidence, over the full disease course, with a large clinical trial with the proper scientific controls, for any therapy like that.

We should have by now, scientists have had 6 to 8 mos in America to do it, but they were as slow on the uptake as everybody else.

On Mar 31, 2020, it was still the consensus of CDC, WHO, and Surg General that healthy members of the general population not wear masks.

By that point, the country was probably well on the path toward herd immunity since they say covid-19 arrived here in November 2019.
#126455
Pharmacuetical companies terminate clinical trials all of the time when the preliminary data shows that drug is not either/or effective or safe to use.

So according to Johnnie's logic a pharmaceutical company should waste millions of dollars on clinical trials of a drug that the scientists know won't work.....just for the sake of performing studies?
#126552
Hydroxychloroquine did not lead to faster symptom improvement among patients who had Covid-19 symptoms and were not hospitalized, according to a new study published Thursday in the Annals of Internal Medicine.

The study, a randomized controlled trial led by researchers at the University of Minnesota, adds to the evidence that the malaria drug, heralded as a treatment based on scant data early in the pandemic, has little utility in treating Covid-19. It is likely to add to the smoldering political conflict around the drug, which President Trump said he took to prevent Covid-19 infection. But the study itself has significant limitations that prevent it from being a final word on the subject.

On Tuesday, Peter Navarro, the president’s trade adviser, made his faith in hydroxychloroquine part of a broadside against Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, in USA Today. “[W]hen Fauci was telling the White House Coronavirus Task Force that there was only anecdotal evidence in support of hydroxychloroquine to fight the virus, I confronted him with scientific studies providing evidence of safety and efficacy,” Navarro wrote.

Three high-quality randomized controlled studies, the gold standard in evaluating medicines, have been stopped because hydroxychloroquine was providing no benefit at all for patients. Results from one, the RECOVERY study run by U.K. researchers, were released on a preprint server Wednesday and show that not only was there no statistically significant difference between the arms of the trial, the patients on hydroxychloroquine tended to do worse.
#126559
"You should want the cheap, tested drug, say hcq or ivermectin, to be tried here."-johnfibs

But it HAS been tried, dimwit, here, there, and everywhere, and rejected multiple times because it is ineffective at best and harmful at worst, but you still support it in the face of all the studies. Why, because :

1) ORANGE MAN GOOD

2) Trump, Trump, Trump bullshit, Trump, Trump bullshit, you hate Fauci, Trump, Trump

No one should be in agreement with you, johnny. You live in a world of unicorns and silly partisan wishes, and you desperately believe in them all.
#126563
"Sure, they secured borders and urged masks, but they treated cases with HCQ."-johnflubs

And the HCQ most likely had nothing to do with their results. (If it was widely used at all.)

What's your point? That Trump failed to secure our borders and still isn't urging masks? That he failed to do the two things you said Thailand did that were effective?

I thought you supported Trump, but here you are pointing out his failures. Good for you.
#126564
The point is that leftists have irrational hatred of Trump.

America is a larger country than Thailand and far more difficult to seal.

E.g., Trump let in 40k after the travel ban, but he did so ONLY because they were American citizens and he could not deny them entry. These people were tracked to the best of the knowledge of the various states, but obviously that could not be sheer perfection.

Fauci, the WHO, the whole CDC, and the Surgeon General all said through March 31 that masks were NOT needed by healthy members of the general population, so -- if masks do prevent droplet spread after a sneeze -- perhaps those people should shoulder blame.

On the other hand, the virus is SMALLER than the flu and you can't stop a mosquito with a chain link fence.
#126568
and peat and repeat went across the bridge to find philip glasss on groundhog day.
give a fuck about trumpy he has repeatably proved himself incompetent. only anti americans would vote for his ignorant show pre-covid. but on topic at first wonder boy had no blame in this. HOWEVER his post wrong direction, "drink clorox, inhale lysol" , non response, "it will magically go away believe me", has nothing to with a five month old debunked possible fix all. why do you incessantly keep wasting time, with lies and false 1/8 truth alternative facts. grow the fuck up. get a real republican to do your partisan dirty work. this guy is a criminal, pretend he is not. and for the love of mother earth, don't respond with obama keep your dr , hillary email sex smuggling ring, clinton got a blow job.

open your eyes your paycheck supplier got your tongue. which make you a russian operative. and a huge waste of time.
#126584
grafenwohr ahh an ironhorse. as a trainer, trainee, or a traitor? i'm sure you were the most patriotic, fastest, and brightest. so apologies for ever thinking you be the first turn coat against your country. did you have any involvement in the little "mishap"?

but alas if you act like a wrecker instead of a uniter what am i to think. it is after all classic julius move. evidently you missed the class on tyranny and it's prevention.
gooooooo groundhogs.
#126585
I accept your apology.

Still, it must be noted that there was one candidate in 2016 who paid 12 million to Fusion GPS, which worked with ex Brit spy Steele to cobble together a fake dossier (which they ALL knew was fake) used to lie to the FISA court and wiretap the Trump campaign.

On Jan 5, 2017, Obama and Biden and Comey and Yates met in the Oval, and Yates was shocked to learn that Obama and Biden had detailed knowledge of the attempt to railroad Flynn so that he would not uncover all the steps taken to sabotage the Trump presidency.
#126617
But almost all of Hillary's "Deplorables" were far better human beings than her.

Like Bill, the only job she ever did was a brief stint at a law firm, and even there she got into the Rose Law Firm billing records fiasco.

Those "missing" records were later found in the reading room upstairs at the W House.

Now consider the Biden supporters -- young punks looting and burning Portland and Seattle.
#126686
As professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health, I have authored over 300 peer-reviewed publications and currently hold senior positions on the editorial boards of several leading journals. I am usually accustomed to advocating for positions within the mainstream of medicine, so have been flummoxed to find that, in the midst of a crisis, I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines. As a result, tens of thousands of patients with COVID-19 are dying unnecessarily. Fortunately, the situation can be reversed easily and quickly.

I am referring, of course, to the medication hydroxychloroquine. When this inexpensive oral medication is given very early in the course of illness, before the virus has had time to multiply beyond control, it has shown to be highly effective, especially when given in combination with the antibiotics azithromycin or doxycycline and the nutritional supplement zinc.

On May 27, I published an article in the American Journal of Epidemiology (AJE) entitled, "Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk COVID-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis." That article, published in the world's leading epidemiology journal, analyzed five studies, demonstrating clear-cut and significant benefits to treated patients, plus other very large studies that showed the medication safety.

Physicians who have been using these medications in the face of widespread skepticism have been truly heroic. They have done what the science shows is best for their patients, often at great personal risk. I myself know of two doctors who have saved the lives of hundreds of patients with these medications, but are now fighting state medical boards to save their licenses and reputations. The cases against them are completely without scientific merit.

Since publication of my May 27 article, seven more studies have demonstrated similar benefit. In a lengthy follow-up letter, also published by AJE, I discuss these seven studies and renew my call for the immediate early use of hydroxychloroquine in high-risk patients. These seven studies include: an additional 400 high-risk patients treated by Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, with zero deaths; four studies totaling almost 500 high-risk patients treated in nursing homes and clinics across the U.S., with no deaths; a controlled trial of more than 700 high-risk patients in Brazil, with significantly reduced risk of hospitalization and two deaths among 334 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine; and another study of 398 matched patients in France, also with significantly reduced hospitalization risk. Since my letter was published, even more doctors have reported to me their completely successful use.
#126690
BACKGROUND
Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin have been used to treat patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19). However, evidence on the safety and efficacy of these therapies is limited.

METHODS
We conducted a multicenter, randomized, open-label, three-group, controlled trial involving hospitalized patients with suspected or confirmed Covid-19 who were receiving either no supplemental oxygen or a maximum of 4 liters per minute of supplemental oxygen. Patients were randomly assigned in a 1:1:1 ratio to receive standard care, standard care plus hydroxychloroquine at a dose of 400 mg twice daily, or standard care plus hydroxychloroquine at a dose of 400 mg twice daily plus azithromycin at a dose of 500 mg once daily for 7 days. The primary outcome was clinical status at 15 days as assessed with the use of a seven-level ordinal scale (with levels ranging from one to seven and higher scores indicating a worse condition) in the modified intention-to-treat population (patients with a confirmed diagnosis of Covid-19). Safety was also assessed.

RESULTS
A total of 667 patients underwent randomization; 504 patients had confirmed Covid-19 and were included in the modified intention-to-treat analysis. As compared with standard care, the proportional odds of having a higher score on the seven-point ordinal scale at 15 days was not affected by either hydroxychloroquine alone (odds ratio, 1.21; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.69 to 2.11; P=1.00) or hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin (odds ratio, 0.99; 95% CI, 0.57 to 1.73; P=1.00). Prolongation of the corrected QT interval and elevation of liver-enzyme levels were more frequent in patients receiving hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, than in those who were not receiving either agent.

CONCLUSIONS
Among patients hospitalized with mild-to-moderate Covid-19, the use of hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, did not improve clinical status at 15 days as compared with standard care. (Funded by the Coalition Covid-19 Brazil and EMS Pharma; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04322123. opens in new tab.)
#126696
You need to start at the beginning, and then track the whole disease course.

The lack of interest in science here is genuinely shocking.

Fauci took time to dismiss HCQ in Feb and thereafter, but he could already have studied it for almost half a year.

Why?

Probably because Gilead had the new big dollar drug which lobbyists wanted.

And because, for scientists like Elkin (MD, University of Google), ORANGE MAN BAD.
#126717
Probably so.

Was talking to a guy out hiking the other day and he said he would wait 3 mos to take any vaccine just to see if it happened to be flawed.

Even though they are gonna have to cut out, or cut short, some steps like animal testing, I wouldn't wait long.

On the question of HCQ, I was talking to a doctor the other day -- socially -- and he said he thought HCQ would work as a preventative although he said he wasn't a specialist in tropical medicine.
#126884
"... From the FDA perspective, once the FDA approves a drug, healthcare providers generally may prescribe the drug for an unapproved use when they judge that it is medically appropriate for their patient. .."

I don't much about the medical field...But I think Elk is talking out of his ass...
He's only repeating what he hears from the bias liberal media and they get it from
the pharmaceutical companies whose only goal is to make big money from the virus... :O
#126982
You should ask Trump that question.....

Foreign policy is being written by traitors
Immigration policy is being written by racists and a white supremacist.
The DOJ is being run by Trump's personal lawyer.
Trump's in laws are in charge of the pandemic response.
One of Trump's campaign donor is sabotaging the USPS.

And we have the One Dim Witted Moron Who Rules Over Them All...........
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