[justdoit]

Tell me, what do you feel got this country out of the great Depression?

[BilboBagend]

That's quite simple. Federal spending. Stimulus. It came in stages. The part planned by the government started the process. The latter part continued the process. Each part worked to the degree that current economic theory predicts. Just like the current rounds of stimulus worked as current economic theory predicted. The current stall is clearly due to, 1) too little stimulus, and 2) too much counter-stimulus by austerity measures that always stall an economy.

Present economic theory has worked very well in predicting out current economic situation. Neoliberal economics continue to hold back the economy.

[justdoit]

Thats kinda my leanings also. Except, I wonder with so much manufacturing now out of the country the stimulas has less effect. I mean I agreed with the idea of useing stimulus in green based efforts. But then spend for green from Chinese manufacturing using money borrowed from China makes little sense to me. Steel used for bridges from out of the country, where is the long term benifit in that.

[namngulfvet]

Seems to me if I remember correctly Obama spent billions on "Green Energy" which some sent the work overseas and all have gone bust wasting billions in taxpayers dollars. Instead of doing a smooth transition from oil to green. He chose to jam it down our throats. By moving so fast all hes done is fuck things up and put us in debt to the tune of 6 Trillion bucks..

Obama also dumped billions into unions. Unions do not create jobs like the private sector does. He claimed to save or create 4 million jobs.
1. These were all part time jobs that have come and gone.
2. is this the best he can do over 3 1/2 years is 4 million temporary jobs..
4. Obama is a looser and has no leadership qualities what so ever.

[justdoit]

namngulfvet
So I ask, What got us out of the "Great Depression".

[namngulfvet]

Will I would say with 23.4 million out of work with a grand total of unemployment at 14% and the growth of the economy at 1.5% and our poverty level that just hit an all time high and the housing still doing a nose dive ... I would say were not out of the depression yet..... Why would you think were out of it?

[namngulfvet]

The Associated Press surveyed more than a dozen economists, think tanks and academics, both nonpartisan and those with known liberal or conservative leanings, and found a broad consensus: The official poverty rate will rise from 15.1 percent in 2010, climbing as high as 15.7 percent. Several predicted a more modest gain, but even a 0.1 percentage point increase would put poverty at the highest level since 1965.

Heres the stats from Huffington post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... 92744.html

[justdoit]

I am talking about the "Great Depression" of 1929 Not the current Recession. I feel the recession is still going on, we just had a light rebound, but will most likely backslide untill Europe finds its way.
But again, what got us out of the great depression.

[namngulfvet]

My bad... The first depression... The president ordered the Grand Coolie dame to be built. that was the biggest factor in getting us out.

[namngulfvet]

oops should be Dam not dame....

[BilboBagend]

It's still federal spending.

[namngulfvet]

Ya thats right dildo it was but at least it was planned and it worked. unlike Ojackass who just dumped billions into unions without any oversite. Building the Grand Coolie put thousands to work, it also created a town and water for farmers. Re-building a 50 foot stretch of road here and there just to put some union boss back in good graces does not count.

[justdoit]

A little lost about the "throwing billions at unions" thing . Explain..
Investing in our infastructure certaily helped, the Hoover dam, Tenesse Valley program, CCC programs, etc. All created to help the countries infastructure.
But in my opinion WW2 and the tremendous federal spending, first as we frantialy tried to prepare for the upcoming war, then spending as we went all in to the war. And I mean "ALL IN", as in every one sacrificed.
So in that instance federal spending worked.
Also banking regulations helped bring confidence into our saving programs during the depression..
So why all the negitive thoughts that federal spending can't help when its been proven it has in the past. And allowing banking regulations to fall by the wayside when we have lived with the results, now a second time...

[BilboBagend]

LOL, namngulf has no idea what he is saying, nor what it means, nor if it's in any way true.

[namngulfvet]

And you cant refute me can you didlo bagfull. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Leroy]

The major difference between then and now is that before the "Depression" we didn't have a log of liberal programs that screwed tax payers and created massive (51%) dependents on the government for the basic living or that didn't pay a positive NET tax at the end of the year.

We're screwed now, since the Govt has already got masses of people on the tit and creating more government tax spending won't help, it only screws the working class, the NET tax payers, instead of helping them.

To resolve this crisis we need to stop the welfare/assistance programs, completely cut them out of government, cut spending on foreign countries, cut government pay-checks, cut government jobs, and stop funding the lie of green-energy jobs that never show a net gain in the economy.

[namngulfvet]

Clinton stopped them forcing the lazy asses to get a job. Thats when the economy started taking off..

Now we have the Socialist in chief who encourages people to not lazy but extremely lazy.

[justdoit]

Leroy
If we had followed that line of thinking
Wouldn't the depression been worse, at the time we had something like 25% unemployment. People were starving losing all they had.
If we had intrenched there would have not been a Hoover dam, slowing down growth in CA. Ca. has a lot of self inflected wounds to be sure but it is still the eights largest economy in the world. Largly due to federal programs on the colorado river.
There would not been the TVA . During the war Oak Ridge TN was where we developed the "Atom Bomb" At times its developement required huge amounts of elec. In fact there were time that almost 10% of all of this countries electricity was directed at Oak Ridge.
So with out the Federal Program of the TVA, we would not have had the "bomb" when we did.
So I can agree with some of what you say, we do waste lots and lots of hard earned money, but there are times we need to invest, for the good of the majority.
The sticking point is where to direct that has the best long term effect that allows this country to compete globally. China feel the long term will be in green, I can't disagree.

[justdoit]

But I sidetracked, as did others.
So I again Ask
Leroy
What got this country out of the great depression??
Nanmgulfvet
You feel the Hoover dam, a federal program, was the only reason we found our way out from the abyss of 1929-1941?

[Leroy]

But I sidetracked, as did others.
So I again Ask
Leroy
What got this country out of the great depression??

The problem is that the same thing that got us out of the 20's depression won't work here, today, because the socialist programs were not stopped when the economy recovered, they only increased, grew, and expanded beyond what should have happened - no socialist program has ever decreased in our history and it's the reason that it won't work now - we're beyond what the country can support with those massive tax programs today.

You can't fix it the same way because you kept it from the last time, you made it worse.

[BilboBagend]

Refute what?

[Leroy]

Here IS what will work - Food for work programs, not money for work, food for work - where you get Rice, Milk, Cheese, and only the absolute staples, housing, barracks style for work, not rent assistance, not payment assistance, not some nice house/apartment, camps for the masses that need work and support.

After you get those setup, cut all other welfare/assistance programs 100%, cut funding outside the USA, cut all taxes at all levels, remove all deductions from the system for individuals/businesses, impose a flat tax, same rate regardless of income/amounts.

Impose a sealed border mentality with immediate deportation for any illegal and their families - the "citizen" illegals can return when they are 18 or if someone that's not illegal can support them. You don't get free K-12 school unless you're a proven citizen or legal resident.

Impose import tariffs on anything that CAN be made/grown inside the USA.

Bring our Military home, put them on the border and in charge of the protection programs at Government housing projects. Put them around the country like other countries have done for decades - and give them ammo and their damn weapons.

Impose a penalty for any company that moves work outside the USA, to the cost of 1 years salary in taxes for each employee they keep outside the USA that could be working inside the USA.

Impose a mandatory balanced budget law with and require national elections for any new spending programs - mandate that no riders can be added to any bill/law, they must stand on their own.

Encourage small business growth by doing away with 90% of the IRS and 70% of the Federal government and the laws/regulations that go with that.

Give it 3 years, the economy would recover, debt would be almost nil, people would be working instead of surviving on gov programs, people would learn respect and appreciate work instead of sloth.

[namngulfvet]

AMEN Leroy AMEN..

[themission1428]

Here IS what will work - Food for work programs, not money for work, food for work - where you get Rice, Milk, Cheese, and only the absolute staples, housing, barracks style for work, not rent assistance, not payment assistance, not some nice house/apartment, camps for the masses that need work and support.

After you get those setup, cut all other welfare/assistance programs 100%, cut funding outside the USA, cut all taxes at all levels, remove all deductions from the system for individuals/businesses, impose a flat tax, same rate regardless of income/amounts.

Impose a sealed border mentality with immediate deportation for any illegal and their families - the "citizen" illegals can return when they are 18 or if someone that's not illegal can support them. You don't get free K-12 school unless you're a proven citizen or legal resident.

Impose import tariffs on anything that CAN be made/grown inside the USA.

Bring our Military home, put them on the border and in charge of the protection programs at Government housing projects. Put them around the country like other countries have done for decades - and give them ammo and their damn weapons.

Impose a penalty for any company that moves work outside the USA, to the cost of 1 years salary in taxes for each employee they keep outside the USA that could be working inside the USA.

Impose a mandatory balanced budget law with and require national elections for any new spending programs - mandate that no riders can be added to any bill/law, they must stand on their own.

Encourage small business growth by doing away with 90% of the IRS and 70% of the Federal government and the laws/regulations that go with that.

Give it 3 years, the economy would recover, debt would be almost nil, people would be working instead of surviving on gov programs, people would learn respect and appreciate work instead of sloth.

And which republican candidate would adopt all of this ? lol....pie in the sky platitudes....Not even :

Newt Gingrich whose a three time divorcee, adulterer and womanizer would agree to this.

Mitt Romney who gave us Romneycare and later distanced himself from it wouldn't agree to this

Jeb bush ? Nah...his brother tried some of it here and failed big time.

Allan West or Herman Cain (999...lol) ? Koch brothers and other lobbyist would just buy them off and if they don't agree they will just starve their donations to them. You need money to win whether you are a democrat or republican.

Donald Trump ? bwahahaha ! He couldn't even make up his mind whether to run or not. Complained about our imbalance trade policy with China but buys all of his hotel windows from China....lol....hypocrite...

Name one.....common..

Keep dreaming dude....We liberals live in reality not platitudes.

[Leroy]

Themission1428, you ask me which Republicans would adopt my ideas, all of them - I really can't think of any, but that's not the question you asked that caused me to post the list of what I think would fix the economy/country, but you know that, so now you're back to diversions and misdirections.

Why haven't you created a list of what you think it will take to get out of this economic great depression? Oh, that's right, you can't think for yourself and you're afraid that the board will see your inability to understand economics.

[themission1428]

Themission1428, you ask me which Republicans would adopt my ideas, all of them - I really can't think of any, but that's not the question you asked that caused me to post the list of what I think would fix the economy/country, but you know that, so now you're back to diversions and misdirections.

Why haven't you created a list of what you think it will take to get out of this economic great depression? Oh, that's right, you can't think for yourself and you're afraid that the board will see your inability to understand economics.

What ? you said above "all republicans would adopt your ideas" and on the next line you said "I really can't think of any." You must be like romney etch-a-sketch...

Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be nominated by today's standard of republican party. Even him didn't adopt your policies.

Romney made Romneycare

Rick Perry offered in state tuition for illegal immigrants

Newt Gingrich worked across the isles with Bill Clinton and is in favor of free healthcare and green technology.

George Bush overspent in his presidency.

Cheney said " Deficits don't matter." Look happen when he became Vice President he actually implemented what he believe before he became VP.

George HW Bush raise taxes

Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to illegal immigrants.

Even Republicans in Congress during Bush supported the bail outs, TARP and expanding medicare.

Rubio is in favor of amnesty

John McCain supports amnesty to illegal immigrants already here.

Michelle Bachman's husband family got government dole out for their farm and his school.

You are dreaming of your solutions when even your party's history is full of examples of not following what they preach to their base. Those are only red meat offered to people like you to solicit donations and get you to the polls. Once they are in power they become the opposite.

[themission1428]

Themission1428, you ask me which Republicans would adopt my ideas, all of them - I really can't think of any, but that's not the question you asked that caused me to post the list of what I think would fix the economy/country, but you know that, so now you're back to diversions and misdirections.

Why haven't you created a list of what you think it will take to get out of this economic great depression? Oh, that's right, you can't think for yourself and you're afraid that the board will see your inability to understand economics.

Leroy got caught by his own lies.....

He posted above "All republicans would adopt my ideas." Then he follows it up with "I really can't think of any."......lol....

Good job Leroy....lol

[namngulfvet]

moose how can you respect the office of the presidency when you have a lying sack of shit Marxist Communist in office doing his best to destroy the greatest nation on the planet.
He despises rich (even though hes rich himself),
he despises the private sector,
he despises any who is successful, he continues to point fingers,
he never takes responsibility for anything (except he killed Ben Laden) ,
Hes put the country so deep into dept its going to take hundreds of years to get out.
hes spend over 6 Trillion dollars to put us in debt,
hes created a heath system that is going to raise taxes over a Trillion dollars on the nation,
we are paying over 8 million a day in interest to china,
hes against all America values and traditions,
hes for socialism,
All he does is lie,
hes in support of cronies who donate to his agenda,
hes allowed his left wing olicies to cripple small business,
hes divided the country,
hes the biggest racist on the planet.
hes never provided an oz of leadership
hes extremely arrogant,
hes intolerant,
he refuses to release his collage transcripts,
hes extremely hypocritical.

[Leroy]

Themission1428, you ask me which Republicans would adopt my ideas, all of them - I really can't think of any, but that's not the question you asked that caused me to post the list of what I think would fix the economy/country, but you know that, so now you're back to diversions and misdirections.

Why haven't you created a list of what you think it will take to get out of this economic great depression? Oh, that's right, you can't think for yourself and you're afraid that the board will see your inability to understand economics.

Leroy got caught by his own lies.....

He posted above "All republicans would adopt my ideas." Then he follows it up with "I really can't think of any."......lol....

Good job Leroy....lol

You got caught because you're too ignorant to understand what I wrote and too stupid and hate filled to ask when you didn't understand.

I wrote "Themission1428, you ask me which Republicans would adopt my ideas, all of them - I really can't think of any,..."

And you didn't read it as I meant it - I clearly meant "ALL OF THEM" to address "MY IDEAS", as I clearly wrote "I really can't think of any" concerning the Republicans.

Dumbass.

So, you've had multiple chances to post your solution to the economic recovery, and you've not done it once... Seems to be that you're all smoke and BS, that you don't know enough about Politics, Economics, Socialism, or our Countries Foundation to really discuss anything in Politics.

[Shimmer]

I have been looking into a lot of different things going on that are driving the fact that as a nation we are to the point where we are pretty much screwed. Here is a link to a presentation that talks about the way the exponential growth in energy use, food and water usage, and the total credit market debt are in the process of collapsing while we all sit around not realizing we are on the verge of major disaster. At this point I don't think it matters who is in office for the next presidency, since the only difference will be that BHO will tip us over the edge perhaps 6 months to a year faster than would happen under Romney. Have a look and feel free to post hateful and ignorant comments.

You can either watch the video on the page or click to close the page but then stay on the page to read it all as a transcript of the video.

http://moneymappress.com/pro/Pyramid071 ... MR49EADMMP

[Leroy]

Themission1428 - you've had multiple chances to post your solution to the economic recovery, and you've not done it once... Seems to be that you're all smoke and BS, that you don't know enough about Politics, Economics, Socialism, or our Countries Foundation to really discuss anything in Politics.

BUMP FOR TM1428's economic solution...

[BilboBagend]

Stop firing teachers, police, firemen, etc. Rehire those fired.

Stop irrational and destructive tax policies implemented with clearly discredited neoliberal economics. Tax policies intended as an attack on government for the purpose of making a back door attack social programs and as a method on enriching the already wealthy.

Add some carefully tuned stimulative spending that derives future economic advantage and additional U.S. jobs. Renew the American infrastructure of roads, trains, internet, telecommunications, power, etc. Invest in renewable power sources and technologies.

[namngulfvet]

We currently have 45 million on welfare....

[justdoit]

bilibobagend
I agree with most what you say.
In my opinion we as a country
Must increase revenue, in taxes, in tarifs, in everything, but revenues must increase. We all must pay more. Not nice to think about, just a fact. Any American that say they already pay to much, or they make to little, tuff shit. Every one should feel the pain even if its a token pain. Ya live here, ya pay here. And the rich will pay more, why? Its not wealth envy, it's because they can, and will....
Decrease spending. In (almost)everything. Our Military is bloted. We just need to admit we can't save the world at the moment, we need to save ourselves first.
As far as I'm concerned I'm not worried about illegals in this country. The cost of finding and removing them is just to expensive. First warn any company using illegals, next fine, next fine them more. Keep going up till they figure its not economically in their best intrests to keep hiring them. Illegals will always be here but will slowly be reduced or a factor as they are today. For the average American, Illegals keep our inflation down, Slave labor kind of thing. Just a fact. A more effective measure would be to use tarriffs bringing work home. Not tax incentives, tariffs. Upside will bring work home, bad will increase inflation. But again we gotta pay to play.. But we need to keep immigration. 52% of all patents from the US came from Immigrants to this country. If we want to stay a leader in innovation, we need to bring in the talent to do it.
We need to alter our education A 12 month school system. Unions are necessary and we need to work with them to find ways to reward for excellence. Its a proven fact the better the teacher, the higher income of their students 20 years later, much higher...
Fix our totally fucked up prison system, It should never be for profit, but thats an argument for a different thread....
Will or can we do this? Not yet, we havn't reached bottom yet for our country to come together. This board proves it in all the name calling, blaming. Tll we can work together for a common goal, well you can guess.....

[Leroy]

Unions are necessary and we need to work with them to find ways to reward for excellence.

Your statement is COUNTER to what Unions do/build - they do not reward excellence, they reward sloth and mediocrity. People that do better, produce more, are penalized because they are given more and more to do, but the people that don't work as well, hard, more, are given less and less to do - and the slackers are defended by the Unions while the Unions tell the ones that "Excel" to stop making the others look bad.

Doing away with Unions is the only solution to increasing the worker quality and productivity in a way that can be rewarded for the individuals efforts.

[justdoit]

Leroy
I think your forgot to put at the top of your last post
(In my opinion)
I have no problem having people give me their opinion, I have a real problem people telling me as fact their opinion, to me thats preaching not conversing...

[Leroy]

Leroy
I think your forgot to put at the top of your last post
(In my opinion)
I have no problem having people give me their opinion, I have a real problem people telling me as fact their opinion, to me thats preaching not conversing...

Everything we post here IS opinion, and I happen to believe that my opinion is fact, as I've been in a few unions, been a union steward, been active at the local and national level in unions.

What is the point of posting an Opinion if you don't believe your opinion is truth/fact?

Can you show that Unions don't cater to the lesser and work against the Exceptional?

[justdoit]

Leroy
I'll give ya the same answer you gave me a while back on another post
"just google it".

[Leroy]

LOL, I've given you examples of my statement and how I know....

How do you know that I'm wrong?

What union were you a member of?

How many different unions?

Did you work at the local and national level to correct corruption?

[justdoit]

I was in the IAM for over 20 years, and as you was a shop steward for about 3-4 of them. So I know the good and bad of unions. I worked the position as a union member at one company and same position at a diff company with no union, so I have seen the good and bad of both.
Now, as you stated, how do you know I am wrong.
I said I believe unions are necessary, not perfect.

[Leroy]

... deleted history...
I said I believe unions are necessary, not perfect.

Thanks for the history, it's appreciated.

I believe they are 100% unnecessary as they don't provide any of the functions/services they were started/created to provide.

They don't provide safety for workers
They don't stop violations of law at the workplace
They don't protect workers from any harassment in the workplace
They don't protect workers from threats or intimidation by the company

What Unions currently do provide:

Threats against workers that excel, making others look bad
Threats against workers that want financial info on the union hall
Threats against workers to force changes the company wants (union helping the company)
Threats against the company that causes the company to close or move work outside the country
Threats against the workers to go on strike if they don't approve a contract that the workers don't support, but that the Union wants to be passed/implemented
Screwing the members by not accepting concessions/cuts in order to keep jobs inside the USA, because the Union officials would also have to take a cut

We have laws that protect the workers and programs to enforce those laws - the time of Unions is gone and lost - they are nothing more than a fascist organization that destroys the middle class.

[namngulfvet]

Justdoit years ago when unions first came to be they were needed. The biggest issue is they got greedy extremely greedy.. Now its about union bosses and not the worker...

[Leroy]

I'm interested to see Justdoit reply to my factual and accurate description of why unions are no longer needed.

[justdoit]

Leroy
I could just as easily say the unions benifit the worker to each allegation you made and say their factual, and for you to prove me wrong.
Or I could say I agree completly with every statment you made.
In both instances I would be wrong in my in my feeling of unions.
I once had to stand up for a lady that a mangager wanted to fire on trumped up charges because she wouldn't fuck him in his office, True story. I also had to stand up for a guy that was one lazy fuck, abused his sick leave and deserved to be fired in my opinion. So was the union and I right or wrong in both those hearings?

To me life is not black or white, everything is a shade of gray.
So As I said in an earlier post, I see good and bad in unions, they are necessary but nowhere near perfect.
I

[Leroy]

To me life is not black or white, everything is a shade of gray.
So As I said in an earlier post, I see good and bad in unions, they are necessary but nowhere near perfect.
I

Sorry, life is really black and white until you become a liberal or don't want to do the right thing and need to make excuses to justify your self-guilt.

I have never, never, never, in all of the unions I've belonged to, found them to benefit the workers, to protect the workers, to save jobs, in my decades of working as a Union member or working with Union workers.

When the days of Unions were young they were both good and bad, needed, but corrupt, but they were a driving force in protection for the workers against the company corruption and greed/abuse. Today we have laws that protect the workers from the things the unions use provide protection from, but the only thing that the unions really provide workers is fewer job positions, higher wages/benefits until they milk the company out of jobs because of wage/benefit costs, and higher union leader pay/benefits for doing less and less.

I asked an Ohio union government worker how her being in a Union provided me, a tax payer, better service than if she wasn't in a union - she was mean, nasty, argumentative, and everything one would expect of a union member cornered by a truth that she didn't like - the only thing she could say was that her increased salary over the non-union worker meant that she contributed more to the tax base than the non-union worker - but she missed that he's contributing less than she's taking out of the system, costing tax payers more than she's worth....

As a contractor I've been in hundreds of factories and watched people getting paid $25/hr + benefits that do nothing for 80% of an 8 hour shift, day in, day out, because of a union mandate.... Oh, and that same worker won't life a finger to tidy their area because that's not in their Union job description....

The time of Unions is done and over.

[themission1428]

To me life is not black or white, everything is a shade of gray.
So As I said in an earlier post, I see good and bad in unions, they are necessary but nowhere near perfect.
I

Sorry, life is really black and white until you become a liberal or don't want to do the right thing and need to make excuses to justify your self-guilt.

I have never, never, never, in all of the unions I've belonged to, found them to benefit the workers, to protect the workers, to save jobs, in my decades of working as a Union member or working with Union workers.

When the days of Unions were young they were both good and bad, needed, but corrupt, but they were a driving force in protection for the workers against the company corruption and greed/abuse. Today we have laws that protect the workers from the things the unions use provide protection from, but the only thing that the unions really provide workers is fewer job positions, higher wages/benefits until they milk the company out of jobs because of wage/benefit costs, and higher union leader pay/benefits for doing less and less.

I asked an Ohio union government worker how her being in a Union provided me, a tax payer, better service than if she wasn't in a union - she was mean, nasty, argumentative, and everything one would expect of a union member cornered by a truth that she didn't like - the only thing she could say was that her increased salary over the non-union worker meant that she contributed more to the tax base than the non-union worker - but she missed that he's contributing less than she's taking out of the system, costing tax payers more than she's worth....

As a contractor I've been in hundreds of factories and watched people getting paid $25/hr + benefits that do nothing for 80% of an 8 hour shift, day in, day out, because of a union mandate.... Oh, and that same worker won't life a finger to tidy their area because that's not in their Union job description....

The time of Unions is done and over.

Yeah and it's time for the Koch brothers, Adelson, oil companies and big banks to run over ordinary Americans. I'd rather side with the teachers, police officers, firemen, postal workers, restaurants workers than the Koch brothers etc.

The first people who worked their ass off at the World Trade Center were Cops, firemen, and other union members. The ones who got cancer from inhaling the smoke there were middle class Americans (firemen, cops,etc.). You didn't see the Koch brothers rolling up their sleeves and working their ass off saving their fellow Americans.

Even in the bible, Jesus was not part of the elite at that time. He walk didn't even ride horses or camels when He traveled. He hang out with the middle class (fishermen not politicians, workers not with Bankers, ordinary people not with the elite) He was despise by his own people because they could not accept that the Savoir of Mankind would be born in a stable and have no Chariots like the Romans. Jesus and his "crowd" were the middle class.

So from a religious point of view, as a thinking christian, I would side with the preferential option for the poor rather than the rich. Same with what Jesus Christ did.

[themission1428]

I'm interested to see Justdoit reply to my factual and accurate description of why unions are no longer needed.

Have you ever done research on corporate welfare ? How much are they getting in welfare aside from their tax breaks and tax incentives on how not to pay lots of taxes ?

The figures in dollars given to Corporate welfare and bailout are way bigger than what Union members are being paid by the hour. Hundreds of millions in corporate welfare compared to 25 - 60 dollars per hour.

I'd rather give my taxes to union members than corporations who ship my job overseas, lay me off anytime, raid my retirement plan, poison my children's environment by dumping chemical waste in the rivers because just to lower cost so that they could give a higher bonus to themselves.

I am a working class. Not an elite. By doing this I live my Christian faith loser to Jesus. He was more in favor of the working class than the elite.

[elklindo69]

The government is projected to spend some 4-6 trillion dollars on the Iraq war. That kind of money could have been spent on infrastructure projects throughout the nation. Think about the crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, sewer systems, etc that need to be repaired. Which would have put millions to work...

[Leroy]

It's funny watching you guys claim Christ wasn't a 1%er and that he was for the working man.... You seem to miss that Christ didn't advocate TAKING for anyone, that he supported all people regardless of wealth/class/stature - he didn't practice hypocrisy as a daily function like you guys do.

What you're missing is that the Unions don't represent the working man any more, they represent the 1% that you complain about, they only represent the Union Leadership, and you have to admit that they are in the 1%.

So, again, you've bitched and moaned, want more taxes, want welfare, but you have not listed a single thing for fixing the country - why is it that people like you guys can't list a reasonable set of changes that would make economic sense?

[themission1428]

The government is projected to spend some 4-6 trillion dollars on the Iraq war. That kind of money could have been spent on infrastructure projects throughout the nation. Think about the crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, sewer systems, etc that need to be repaired. Which would have put millions to work...

George Bush went to war without including the cost of war on his annual budget. Most people think it was included. When Obama became president he included the cost of going to war so Americans will see the real financial situation of America.

Anybody who started questioning the war under George Bush specially why it was not included to the country's budget was called unpatriotic. While at the same time, No Bid contracts were given to Halliburtion. This is a fact. You should have seen the cost of food (even water and screws) contractors were charging the Us Government.

They build other shell companies to add to the cost. Thereby, maximizing their profits. Why do you think most if not all defense contractors are pro republicans.

lol....just so funny many American do not know where there tax money are going...And they complain about ordinary firemen, teachers and policemen getting big salaries for protecting and educating the American public. Romney even said we don't need more of them. Google it.