[rugrollers]

I didn't realize the upload function had been restored. Went in to see whether the Terms and Conditions were kosher. Maybe I am blind, but I don't see that there is any T&C whatsoever!

So people are seriously submitting their content without any assurances as to non-dissemination and protection of content whatsoever?! After all of what has happened over the past month and a half?

Doesn't there have to be a T&C even from the site's perspective, in order to grant permission to display the material?

Rug Roller

[VWSupport]

They are there when you click "Post your Girls: How To Submit Photos or Videos" (for VW) or "Upload your Photos or Videos" (RC) it brings you right to them see: http://www.voyeurweb.com/Compet.html. HomeClips will have that shortly, we did not announce the uploader yet as it is in the final stages and not totally complete.

[rugrollers]

They are there when you click "Post your Girls: How To Submit Photos or Videos" (for VW) or "Upload your Photos or Videos" (RC) it brings you right to them see: http://www.voyeurweb.com/Compet.html. HomeClips will have that shortly, we did not announce the uploader yet as it is in the final stages and not totally complete.

Okay -- looks like they need some updating, though. Aside from the presumably non-existent "Kate's sites," assigning publication rights to individuals (fictional or real) and to any sites that individual might later develop, seems like a very bad idea given recent events. Just as contributors over at VC insisted on wording the T&C so as to avoid a similar situation arising in the future, so should VW contributors.

The T&C also need to be easily available from the upload page, so that contributors can see what they are agreeing to by submitting material to the site. That's what I didn't see in the uploader, although I did not go further than the page where a file is selected and submitted -- i.e., I did not submit anything. If the T&C appear subsequent to that page they are in the wrong place and should be accessible before a file is uploaded.

Although the uploader has not been announced, there is a notice on the VW front page saying that submissions are being received. If this is true, and the T&C are nowhere visible in the submission process, people have presumably been submitting to the site without having any idea what they were agreeing to. This just amazes me.

Rug Roller

[VWSupport]

RR,
I understand you are trying to ensure this site is the best it can be and I appreciate that.

I agree that the sites need updating for things like the Kate stuff, but right now restoring the most important functionalities are key, and the rest will follow. As far as copyright, the person who takes a photo (generally not the subject unless they are one and the same) retains the copyright, this is standard law. Please email me with further details of changes you believe should be made to the page.

The T&C are easily available, they appear when you click on the "Post your Girls: How To Submit Photos or Videos" (for VW) or "Upload your Photos or Videos" (RC) and BEFORE you submit your photo. Although as I said before, the bug for HCs needs to be resolved.

[rugrollers]

Kiki,

I think I see the basic problem now -- I was going via the yellow "Upload your Photos" link at the very top of the page, under the section tabs. This link is apparently plugged into a different path, which doesn't have the T&C -- it isn't just HomeClips. I don't even know if it's really functional, of course, since I didn't complete the submission process. But it should be an easy fix to switch that link to the same path as the "Girls" one on the sidebar.

Here is why I think it is important to conduct these discussions in public, at least for the most part: transparency and trust. As you know, recent events have seriously damaged the trust that sites like this need to be based on, and VW's earlier manner of handling the situation was anything but transparent. The T&C is a particularly important area in this way. I'm not sure whether you followed the discussion on the boards in the early stages when it became apparent that there had been some manipulation of the T&C so as to rather legalistically allow for the republishing of recent VW content on VC. It has made some of us much more attentive to this issue.

Now that VW is taking a more transparent approach, I think you really should open up the discussion of T&C to contributor input and think carefully about what they should look like in order to best avoid something like this happening again. That discussion would have to take place publicly on the board. And while I understand your immediate concern with restoring functionality over other issues, I really don't agree with you that the T&C are a secondary concern. They are both legally and symbolically important. Legally, most sites like this make contributors give up virtually all rights to what they submit in their T&C. Even where rights are retained, they are virtually impossible to enforce, as we have learned. Symbolically, VW needs to signal its commitment to contributor security and reestablishing trust by taking these legalities seriously.

I do wish the site well, and I wish you well in helping to run it. But my main concern is for the security of contributors -- past and future (ourselves included., of course). Last Monday may seem like an eon ago to you after having spent a week in the fray, but to me it is a very recent memory and a cautionary one. If I feel like contributor security is being taken lightly and taking a back seat to other concerns I will act accordingly.

Rug Roller

[nikki2012]

Here is why I think it is important to conduct these discussions in public, at least for the most part: transparency and trust. As you know, recent events have seriously damaged the trust that sites like this need to be based on, and VW's earlier manner of handling the situation was anything but transparent. The T&C is a particularly important area in this way. I'm not sure whether you followed the discussion on the boards in the early stages when it became apparent that there had been some manipulation of the T&C so as to rather legalistically allow for the republishing of recent VW content on VC. It has made some of us much more attentive to this issue.

Now that VW is taking a more transparent approach, I think you really should open up the discussion of T&C to contributor input and think carefully about what they should look like in order to best avoid something like this happening again. That discussion would have to take place publicly on the board. And while I understand your immediate concern with restoring functionality over other issues, I really don't agree with you that the T&C are a secondary concern. They are both legally and symbolically important. Legally, most sites like this make contributors give up virtually all rights to what they submit in their T&C. Even where rights are retained, they are virtually impossible to enforce, as we have learned. Symbolically, VW needs to signal its commitment to contributor security and reestablishing trust by taking these legalities seriously.

I do wish the site well, and I wish you well in helping to run it. But my main concern is for the security of contributors -- past and future (ourselves included., of course). Last Monday may seem like an eon ago to you after having spent a week in the fray, but to me it is a very recent memory and a cautionary one. If I feel like contributor security is being taken lightly and taking a back seat to other concerns I will act accordingly.

Rug Roller

Absolutely! Well said! As a contributor who feels "burned" by recent events, I'm very wary about trusting VW or any site at this point, especially with an insufficient T&C. Yes, there will be people who don't care and who will continue to contribute regardless, but I think VW will see a huge drop in contributions because like Rug Rollers, I DO care about the T&C.
Contributors need to be able to trust that the chances of incidents like recent past events happening again are slim to none. While I realize there can be no absolute guarantee that a similar fiasco will not occur, I think better and stronger T&C will go a long way in helping put contributors' minds at ease.

Nikki

[VWSupport]

I completely agree that contributors should have input on this, perhaps contributors can start a thread on T&C to ensure there is total transparency and we get proper input from those who make this community as great as it is. RR, forgive me if you thought I grouped in the entire T&C when I stated that the minor things (like Kate's name all over the websites which I sure drives some people nuts) I just meant that her name in the T&C is on the list of things to be fixed, just not the first thing. Nikki, I can only partially understand how you are feeling now as I was not a contributor myself, but I can see why you would feel "burned" and are concerned about trust issues. I will do everything in my power to ensure that the contributors are protected.

[rockclimber]

Kiki:

Reading the above comments, I cannot agree more. I would urge you to read the comments I made to you in a PM/Email last week.

To anyone else reading, it wasn't anything secret but it WAS a PM so... It should stay as such.

I think the contributors NEED ressurance. To put it delicately, the beauties who inhabit VW are our Friends, our girlfriends, the mothers of our children even grandmothers in more than a few cases. These ladies DESERVE every conideration for their privacy and reassurance that they can play here without having to fear being used and misused. Obviously every image is a right click away from being anywhere, but the PERCEPTION of Security and integrity is critical.

They deserve it and if VW wants to have a viable business they darn well better make sure the ladies are happy and feel confident in VW's active protection of their identity and the use of their images beyond the site they were submitted to. Anything less and they wont submit contri. Sure some will, but more will just say "Nope, gonna do something else."


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[rugrollers]

Kiki,

I think I see the basic problem now -- I was going via the yellow "Upload your Photos" link at the very top of the page, under the section tabs. This link is apparently plugged into a different path, which doesn't have the T&C -- it isn't just HomeClips. I don't even know if it's really functional, of course, since I didn't complete the submission process. But it should be an easy fix to switch that link to the same path as the "Girls" one on the sidebar.

Two days later, and the submission link at the top of the page still runs along a different path and contains no T&C.

Shouldn't this be an easy fix? Diego, is this your department?

I strongly feel you should not be having people submit material with no T&C at all (and I don't understand why anyone would do it).

Rug Roller

[Tokes45]

RUG (and some others)

I have been member of RC since about 2003, and I have been following the events for the past month. I have paid particular attention to your your posts. I was a contributor mostly on the EXBB boards, but a contributor none the less. Your opinions on some of the issues I valued more because you paid money to be on the old site and also contributed to it to actually make it a site. Unlike the free visitors who contribute nothing, and I feel have very little actual value in their opinion.
Here is my thought. Why are you still here. I don't mean that to be an ass, I mean it in the real sense of who would want to stay with this version of VW/RC? You yourself know all of the crap that has gone on with the Treatment of customers/contributors, the promises not keep, the opening of the content to the general public (that I feel was the worst and final straw), the revolving door of people supposedly in charge, the problems with re-registering, the blatant lies, the loss of the old members, censored or removed posts. I will stop there.
I look at this whole thing as the community we had changed addresses and even though the place I called home is still there, it is being rented out to a bunch of college kids who came in broke a bunch of shit and generally made a mess of things. I could stay here and live with them, or just move to the new house I built and get back to my routine.
I mean really, how VC is running right now is a tweaked version of what we had with alot of the same faces. Now I am not an Igor fan and the whole "who is right and who is wrong" thing is not a big deal to me. Let's say you picked a side and in a year you found out you were on the right side. What happens? Do you get a congratulations email from all the people on the wrong side? What if you are on the wrong side? Do you hide in shame and never post again?

If all the people who sat in the forum waiting for a month and arguing with the "PR Nut" just went to VC started posting like they used to, I think would have save alot of headaches and the life of many keyboards.
Now arguing about getting paid for your past winning contributions is something that you should concentrate on.
I guess I am just trying to say if we really look at what went down over the last couple weeks if you just moved to the new house when the new kids moved in it would have been so much simpler. I never got my new nick and password for the current RC site, and you know what, 20 bucks is just not that big of a deal to have to deal with the new administrators. I would never post a photo on these boards again after what I have seen you go through with the opening of the old content. Now the new site took the content and moved it (maybe or maybe not legally) but it was never opened up to the public.

I have been doing the same thing I did at the OLD RC only in my new house and I have like the new view and seeing my old friends.

Thanks for the contributions over the years, maybe I will see you and the new house.

MrTokes45