[elklindo69]

Pure idiocy....

A man suspected of shoplifting two DVD players from a Lithonia, Ga., Walmart today died after an altercation with two store employees and a contract security guard, prompting a police investigation.
The man, whose identity has not been released, exited through the front door of the store at 1:30 a.m. today and was confronted in the parking lot, according to DeKalb County police.
When officers arrived at the scene, they found the employees on top of the middle-aged man, according to a police report obtained by ABC News affiliate WSB-TV. When an officer bent down to handcuff the suspect, he noticed there was no resistance.
At that point, the officer noticed the suspect was bleeding from the nose and mouth, according to the report. He was transported to DeKalb Medical-Hillandale Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
"This is truly a sad situation. We don't know all of the facts right now. We're in the process of working with law enforcement to determine all of the facts and cooperating and providing any information we have to assist in the investigation," Dianna Gee, Walmart spokesperson, said in a statement issued to ABC News.
Gee said the contract security guard will no longer be providing services to the retailer. The two store employees have been suspended with pay while Walmart assists police in the investigation.
"Our associates are trained that the safety of our customers and our associates is our first priority," Gee said. "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life. Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk. That being said, this is still an active investigation and we're working with police to provide any assistance."

[RealJustme]

So?

[DarknLadyJedi]

That's part of the problem, everyone seems to care about the criminal.

He's dead? He was shoplifting? Can you prove he was shoplifting?

OK, go back to your jobs.

No, I'm sorry criminal's family you can't sue them because criminal died in the commission of a criminal act.

[RealJustme]

OK, go back to your jobs.

Agree, it's tragic that the security guard (probably only making $10.00 an hour) is being put through this by some thug who dies while attacking employees after he gets caught stealing. But if Walmart puts him through more mental aguish than he's already been through, the guard will be able to sue. If the thug who died has assets (I doubt it but you never know) the employees should go after it.

[brandon]

Things can escalate quickly when one chooses to commit a crime.

Stupid is as....

[Vj2]

No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life. Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk.

Let the dude go if you're an employee it's not worth it. Guy may well be a thief doesn't deserve to die for it.

[RealJustme]

Let the dude go if you're an employee it's not worth it. Guy may well be a thief doesn't deserve to die for it.

I agree the employees should have just followed him and got a license plate number but the security guard "can't" just let thieves walk away with the stolen property, they're paid to stop them. The bad guy decided to fight rather than return the property, he loss.

[elklindo69]

People here forget one thing...

Due process, people are ASSUMING that the guy was a thief, but what would happen if through a further investigation that the person DID NOT steal anything???

Store employees and security guards are not trained law enforcement officers. Leave law enforcement to the professionals. There is no point in engaging a person, who you believe may have stolen something. Leave that up to the cops, that's what they are trained and paid to do...with my tax dollars.

Get a description and a plate number, the cops will end up picking up the guy at a car wash or something without incident...

[DarknLadyJedi]

People here forget one thing...

Due process, people are ASSUMING that the guy was a thief, but what would happen if through a further investigation that the person DID NOT steal anything???

Store employees and security guards are not trained law enforcement officers. Leave law enforcement to the professionals. There is no point in engaging a person, who you believe may have stolen something. Leave that up to the cops, that's what they are trained and paid to do...with my tax dollars.

Get a description and a plate number, the cops will end up picking up the guy at a car wash or something without incident...

Shoplifting? The police will take a report and be done with it.

As for proving the guy stole the DVD, absolutely make them prove he did it. But why should the criminal have all the rights?

[RealJustme]

Get a description and a plate number, the cops will end up picking up the guy at a car wash or something without incident...
elklindo69 Posts: 93Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:49 pm

What makes you think he wouldn't fight with the police like he did the security guard? It wasn't the shoplifting that got him killed, it was attacking the security guard with physical force rather than returning the DVD player. Funny how liberals try to pretend it was the shoplifting that got him killed :lol:

[Vj2]

A few things here. Let's assume that he did grab the DVD ,it is theft in principle. There is no evidence ( based on the story posted here) that he attacked anyone. We don't know what happened. If he would decide to fight the police well that's what cops are paid for. A security guard can just provide the best description possible of the suspect as well as any pertinent information such as make model license plate number direction of travel etc and leave it at that. At the end of the day the company is insured against theft and security guards are there to provide loss mitigation not forceful detention.

With regard to "rights" of the "criminal" his act ( theft of an insured item) shouldn't have the consequence of death if in confrontation with people instructed in non engagement. Clearly something went horribly wrong. One man is dead and others face possible criminal charges. Nobody wins except the company who don't have to make an insurance claim

[RealJustme]

A security guard can just provide the best description possible of the suspect as well as any pertinent information such as make model license plate number direction of travel etc and leave it at that.

Everyone has the right to use physical force to protect their property, the security guard is specifically hired to act as the owners agent in protecting his property. Our Country isn't to the point where we have to just let people take what they want and suck it up. If you try and take most men's wallets you'll have a fight, liberals feel you don't have the right to harm the bad guy and to avoid violating the thieves rights allow them to take it. In fact if it was up to liberals police would be required to hand over their weapons to bad guys if the bad guys turns violent. :lol:

[Vj2]

A security guard can just provide the best description possible of the suspect as well as any pertinent information such as make model license plate number direction of travel etc and leave it at that.

Everyone has the right to use physical force to protect their property, the security guard is specifically hired to act as the owners agent in protecting his property. Our Country isn't to the point where we have to just let people take what they want and suck it up. If you try and take most men's wallets you'll have a fight, liberals feel you don't have the right to harm the bad guy and to avoid violating the thieves rights allow them to take it. In fact if it was up to liberals police would be required to hand over their weapons to bad guys if the bad guys turns violent. :lol:

I'm not saying that I wouldn't be tempted to intervene. I'm saying that his job is loss mitigation not physical force with regard to property that isn't his. Specifically when the company policy states to NOT get into a physical altercation. Your analogy ot relevant because a corposrate loss ( insurable) is what we are talking about. Do you have insurance against getting your wallet lifted in a Walmart? The country is to that point because of the legalities around liability. It's the most litigious country in the developed world. So that is in essence the crux of the matter

[Shimmer]

For a period of time I worked as a Security Guard and stopping a shoplifter and detaining them until police arrived was a normal part of the job. We were instructed to avoid any physical violence but routinely handcuffed people for both their and our protection. If we were attacked while attempting the stop or while putting the handcuffs on the individual we were allowed to defend ourselves. With the modern video systems in stores these days it's quite easy to catch people who grab something and head for the exits without paying. Once they pass a specific point then their intent is clear and they can be detained. I'm not sure of the value of the DVD players or what the threshold is in Georgia but a single shoplifting theft of over $200.00 or a string of three or more separate thefts in a shoplifting spree regardless of the value is a felony in Virginia. We once had to detain a 17 year old girl after she stole a total of $7.00 worth of stuff from three stores and she was looking at felony charges.

It's sad that this guy felt that life was so desperate that he had to steal and sadder still that in the end he died from the whole event, but he did commit a crime and was an ex-con with a record including shoplifting, forgery and substance abuse. I suspect he was really just a liberal who didn't understand that the government taking from someone to redistribute it is legal but doing it privately is a crime. Just couldn't get his head around that.

[RealJustme]

Your analogy ot relevant because a corposrate loss ( insurable) is what we are talking about. Do you have insurance against getting your wallet lifted in a Walmart?

So your arguement is that if you have insurance on something you can't protect your property but if you don't have insurance on it you can protect it? Dude where do you live? I need some electronics and can use another car.

[Vj2]

No my argument is that it is a litigious society and the reason for not getting into physical contact with a shoplifter is that the company is covered and no one has to get hurt. Or face criminal charges for doing "the right thing".

Years ago I was walking into a sports store as an employee was chasing a shoplifter, I pretended to step out of the way, tripped the guy and conveniently fell on top of him. Suffice it to say after he was in police custody I got a stern talking to by the police who warned me that I could face possible charges because I assaulted someone who was not a threat to me. It all worked out. I felt I did the "right thing", but realized that assault charges for an insured item wasn't worth it.
I bet the store clerks wish they'd let the guy go in the case we've been discussing.

There are things worth getting charged for if it's in defense of loved ones. But a doohickey? Nah...

[wildjack]

bottom line....donks love thieves, because they are thieves.

[Vj2]

bottom line....donks love thieves, because they are thieves.

Yah I'd agree if you're delusional :lol:

[RealJustme]

[quote]No my argument is that it is a litigious society and the reason for not getting into physical contact with a shoplifter is that the company is covered and no one has to get hurt. Or face criminal charges for doing "the right thing".
[/quote

If department stores followed your advise there would be no need for customers to pay for anything, just walk in take what you want then walk out with it. That's not the way it works, if you think it is trying walking out of a store with an arm full of DVD's. When the security guard tells you to put the property down and get on the ground, tell him to screw himself and keep on walking...watch what happens :lol:

[Vj2]

No my argument is that it is a litigious society and the reason for not getting into physical contact with a shoplifter is that the company is covered and no one has to get hurt. Or face criminal charges for doing "the right thing".
[/quote

If department stores followed your advise there would be no need for customers to pay for anything, just walk in take what you want then walk out with it. That's not the way it works, if you think it is trying walking out of a store with an arm full of DVD's. When the security guard tells you to put the property down and get on the ground, tell him to screw himself and keep on walking...watch what happens :lol:

Clearly you missed Walmarts stance on the matter. From the opening post

Our associates are trained that the safety of our customers and our associates is our first priority," Gee said. "No amount of merchandise is worth someone's life. Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk.

Why do you think they do that? To cover their arses... To not get sued. To potentially distance themselves from the fallout when their "associates" ignore the guidelines. I'm only pointing out the position of the company as they've clearly stated

[elklindo69]

The stupidity of humanity never ceases to amaze me.

If I see someone breaking into my car or trying to steal it, I'll call the cops on my cell. You have no idea who you are dealing with. They could have guns, knives, whatever. The cops have guns, SWAT teams, K-9, helicopters, and so on. I pay alot of money in taxes so let them figure it out.

Plus my car is covered for theft. And there is no point in risking life and limb for it....

[RealJustme]

If I see someone breaking into my car or trying to steal it, I'll call the cops on my cell. You have no idea who you are dealing with

What's that have to do with a security guard confronting a shoplifter? So you think the security guard should have called security and reported the guy so that security could deal with him?

[elklindo69]

If I see someone breaking into my car or trying to steal it, I'll call the cops on my cell. You have no idea who you are dealing with

What's that have to do with a security guard confronting a shoplifter? So you think the security guard should have called security and reported the guy so that security could deal with him?

Yes........

They are called the police, if you never knew... :lol:

BTW, this is the proper way with dealing with a shoplifter....

SALIBURY, N.C. -- A Walmart shoplifter tried to escape from police by using his shopping cart as a scooter, but it didn’t work and a policeman on foot nabbed the suspect, the CBS affiliate in Charlotte reported.

The incident happened in Salisbury on Wednesday when police arrived at Walmart to check out a call about a shoplifter, the TV station reported.

As the policeman got there, the suspect, Ronald Macon, was pushing a shopping cart crammed with more than $400 in stolen stuff from the store, Salisbury Police told WBTV.

As the policeman yelled for the shoplifter to stop, the man then jumped onto the cart, pushed it with his left foot and tried to ride the cart through the parking lot for an escape, WBTV reported.

The policeman took off on foot and quickly caught Macon, according to a police report obtained by WBTV.

Macon is facing a larceny charge and later was charged with trespassing when police discovered he was banned from Walmart earlier this year for theft, WBTV reported.

[RealJustme]

BTW, this is the proper way with dealing with a shoplifter....

SALIBURY, N.C. -- A Walmart shoplifter tried to escape from police by using his shopping cart as a scooter, but it didn’t work and a policeman on foot nabbed the suspect, the CBS affiliate in Charlotte reported.

So now force to stop the bad guys is OK???? What if the bad guy got hurt, would that not be OK?

Bottom line, someone attempts to steal your property you are within your rights to use force to try and stop them. If the bad guy dies during the hand to hand struggle...tough!

[Vj2]

Bottom line, someone attempts to steal your property you are within your rights to use force to try and stop them. If the bad guy dies during the hand to hand struggle...tough!

You have no real concept of the law do you? Or the legal ramifications of acting on your own accord wily nily? is it just an adoption of a stance for the sake of it? don't get me wrong I would love to stop anyone stealing my property but sometimes it's not worth it. Where do you draw the line?

[RealJustme]

You have no real concept of the law do you? Or the legal ramifications of acting on your own accord wily nily? is it just an adoption of a stance for the sake of it? don't get me wrong I would love to stop anyone stealing my property but sometimes it's not worth it. Where do you draw the line?
Vj2 Posts: 29Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:12 am

Sure I understand liberals want to protect the scum through abuse of the laws but I argue the law protects the innocent, we can't bow down to abuse of our legal system. Someone tries to make you a victim, stand your ground, Fuckem, bring it on.

Carlos

[Vj2]

You have no real concept of the law do you? Or the legal ramifications of acting on your own accord wily nily? is it just an adoption of a stance for the sake of it? don't get me wrong I would love to stop anyone stealing my property but sometimes it's not worth it. Where do you draw the line?
Vj2 Posts: 29Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:12 am

Sure I understand liberals want to protect the scum through abuse of the laws but I argue the law protects the innocent, we can't bow down to abuse of our legal system. Someone tries to make you a victim, stand your ground, Fuckem, bring it on.

Carlos

This has nothing to do with liberals or conservatives. It has to do with what the laws are plain and simple. You're advocating doing what you want and fuck the law. Makes you like the alleged criminal but at least you stood your ground. Well done :idea: :idea:

[RealJustme]

You're advocating doing what you want and fuck the law.

LOL, the law doesn't require you to be a willing victim...that's a liberal lie. "Thousands" of Americans defend themselves and their property every day all across the United States. Only cowards and liberals bow down to the bad guys when they have the means to protect themselves and their families. It's those easy victims that encourage the bad guys to continue their ways. If you think the law requires you to be a submissive victim, you're confused.

[Vj2]

You're advocating doing what you want and fuck the law.

LOL, the law doesn't require you to be a willing victim...that's a liberal lie. "Thousands" of Americans defend themselves and their property every day all across the United States. Only cowards and liberals bow down to the bad guys when they have the means to protect themselves and their families. It's those easy victims that encourage the bad guys to continue their ways. If you think the law requires you to be a submissive victim, you're confused.

I repeat this has nothing to do with political persuasion so stop trying to make it so. Nobody said anything about being a willing victim. This is about common sense Carlos. Also understand that you can't always take the law into your own hands.

[RealJustme]

Nobody said anything about being a willing victim. This is about common sense Carlos. Also understand that you can't always take the law into your own hands.

Defending yourself and your property isn't a violation of the law. Law is the collective organization of the individual right to defend life, liberty, and property. Property rights are vital to your freedom and inseparable from it. The Courts will always support the property owners rights to protect their property as long as it can be shown that was the intent of the property owner. You also have the right to make a citizens arrest if you are the victim of the crime and your intent it to detain them until law enforcement arrives. More Americans need to pay more attention to their Constitutional rights than policical talking heads who's more concerned about the criminals' rights than the victims. Time to take America back and stand up to the scum when they try and make you a victim.

[elklindo69]

Nobody said anything about being a willing victim. This is about common sense Carlos. Also understand that you can't always take the law into your own hands.

Defending yourself and your property isn't a violation of the law. Law is the collective organization of the individual right to defend life, liberty, and property. Property rights are vital to your freedom and inseparable from it. The Courts will always support the property owners rights to protect their property as long as it can be shown that was the intent of the property owner. You also have the right to make a citizens arrest if you are the victim of the crime and your intent it to detain them until law enforcement arrives. More Americans need to pay more attention to their Constitutional rights than policical talking heads who's more concerned about the criminals' rights than the victims. Time to take America back and stand up to the scum when they try and make you a victim.

People's constitutional rights are not absolute. There are many exceptions.

If a burglar enters your home and threatens you with a knife and you shoot the guy. That's legal, because the castle doctrine allows for deadly force to be used to protect life and property when you are in your home because you cannot be forced to flee your home.

When a security guard peruses a suspected shoplifter, he is not in fear of grave bodily injury. When you pursue you are the aggressor. And from practicing judo for many years, putting someone into a choke hold is using deadly force. That's why the police have ordered an autopsy. Because they want to determine if the person died of preexisting condition or a suffocation from the choke hold.

That is why Walmart had the policy of 'disengaging' suspected shoplifters and instructed them to contact local police. It's that simple. 99.9999% of the employees know this and would follow company policy. The security guard and two other employees violated company policy, plain and simple.

[RealJustme]

That is why Walmart had the policy of 'disengaging' suspected shoplifters and instructed them to contact local police.

Wrong, any business that employess security guards instruct their other employees to contact security if they notice shoplifting. Security will engage shoplifters, just try walking out of a store with stolen property after being confronted by a security guard and see if they "disengage" :lol:

[elklindo69]

That is why Walmart had the policy of 'disengaging' suspected shoplifters and instructed them to contact local police.

Wrong, any business that employess security guards instruct their other employees to contact security if they notice shoplifting. Security will engage shoplifters, just try walking out of a store with stolen property after being confronted by a security guard and see if they "disengage" :lol:

Dianna Gee said, “No amount of merchandise is worth someone’s life.” She also said that “Associates are trained to disengage from situations that would put themselves or others at risk.”

http://www.examiner.com/article/shoplif ... subdue-him

OK so now we have a situation where

1. 3 individuals clearly violated company policy.
2. 3 Individuals will get fired.
3. 3 individuals will get sued, and face lifetime wage garnishments.

And a guy dead over a stupid piece of consumer electronics. Because three knuckleheads couldn't wait for the cops...

What a fucking shame!!!

[RealJustme]

Black Friday shopping weekend apparently took a tragic turn early
Sunday morning when an alleged shoplifter died while being apprehended
by employees and a contract security officer outside a Lithonia Walmart.

DeKalb police say that the unidentified man took two DVD players from the
Walmart at 5401 Fairington Road around 1:30 a.m. The man, who appeared
to be middle aged, exited through the front door, but was caught by the
trio in the parking lot where a “physical altercation” took place when the man struck the security guard in the face when approached. Based upon the preliminary investigation no charges will be filed against the Walmart employees who were operating within the scope of their responsibilities.

[RealJustme]

Turns out the scum bag that died wasn't even a minority, he was an old white dude with medical problems, to top it off the security guard is black. NAACP and the ACLU now feel Walmart is being to harsh on the employees for just doing their jobs and demand they be returned to work immediately. :lol:

[Freedman]

Turns out the scum bag that died wasn't even a minority, he was an old white dude with medical problems, to top it off the security guard is black. NAACP and the ACLU now feel Walmart is being to harsh on the employees for just doing their jobs and demand they be returned to work immediately.

The security guard was just trying to make a living, the only reason this in the news is because the guy who died is white. Racism is still going strong in America.

[snakeoil]

Did I miss something? I thought that everyone was innocent until proven guilty. Beware the Rent-A-Cop. I know one Rent-A-Cop that had to go to a special shcool because of mental problems. Another one was one of the worst alcoholics I ever knew. That one carried a gun as part of his job/

[Freedman]

Did I miss something? I thought that everyone was innocent until proven guilty.

I agree with you Snake, lots of people wanting to hang the security guard just because he's black, they don''t want to wait until the investigation done.