[BilboBagend]

Why does only the Electoral College has any meaning is this election? Simple, because that is what the two candidates must optimize the campaigning to win. If they needed to optimize their campaigns for the popular vote they would campaign differently and we would see very different popular vote results. Candidates would campaign over the whole country. Advertisements would be all over the whole country6. Thus in this election as in all previous elections the popular vote is irrelevant. No one is trying to win the popular vote thus there is no meaning to the popular vote.

Still, I am for changing the law and making the popular vote the only why to elect any candidate, or to nominate any candidate.

[snakeoil]

The electoral college was started for two reasons. The first was to give each state an equal chace to elect a President. The second was to allow a Representative to ride to the nation's capital with one slip of paper telling Congress how his state voted rather than have ten wagon loads of ballots making the trip over the terrible roads of the time.

[BilboBagend]

It's time is done. Only the two corpratist party system keeps it alive. Power to the mega international corporation.

[Vj2]

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... te-silver/

[RealJustme]

God I hate to say this...I agree with Bilbo, the one with the most wins, simple! But I'd take it one step further, there would be no political parties. No partisan games, no special influence, no having to walk the party line...simply vote for the best person for the job. This party systems are ran by special interest groups and it's not in our interest.

[snakeoil]

Very interesting post Justme. That is, considering that you constantly quote the Kock Brothers lines. The Kock brothers fund about a dozen different think tanks who's main purpose in life is to get you to accept whatever the Kock brothers want you to believe. These think tanks could take the sentence "Eat shit and die" and, in time, you would think it was the best advice you ever heard. Have we really gotten to the point that our minds are for sale? Look at the seniors at a Ryan rally screaming that we have to get rid of SS. What has warped their minds so much that they will vote against their own interest? Don't tell me it's because they are thinking about the future; people aren't wired that way. Besides, most of them only have 30 years left at best. Several polls have shown that most people do not even know their Congressman or Senators. I wonder how many citizens have ever read a Congressional bill. I wonder how many citizens have ever checked to see how their elected reps voted on legislation. Where are they getting their information? Fox is definately right wing. MSNBC is pretty liberal. The New York Times seeks out sensationalism. The Wall Street Journal is pro business and they fight any attempt to regulate business. I wonder how many citizens even know how the political system works. I wonder how many citizens know how complex popular issues really are. You would be amazed at how many drunks, criminals, those looking to line their own pockets and those (to be charitable) less than smart are in the Congress and Senate. We all bitch about government but it's our own fault. I heard long ago, "People always get the government they deserve."

[RealJustme]

Snake, what's your point?

[snakeoil]

My point is that most of the electorate doesn't think about what a candidate stands for; they vote party only. It appears that you fit into this mold although, since you say you are independent, you vote as you are told to by the Kock brothers. Every post that you submit bears this out.

BTW: If you are truly a registered Independent as you say, you have swallowed the KoolAid. If your state is like mine, Independents cannot vote in the Dem and GOP primaries. Therefor you have no say in who runs in the general election. Therefor you must vote for one of the candidates put up by the Dems or GOP (unless you want to vote for one of the candidates like Nader who has no chance of winning. I can hear David Kock snickering now; "Got cha!"

[BilboBagend]

Justupid doesn't understand that he supports every corporatist proposal ( e.g. fascist proposal). Every time you speak or vote to concentrate power in corporate hands. Then he supports big government interference to limit peoples private choices, like forming political parties. He never thinks things through.

NO, simple stupid misdirected ideals will not work, but smart targeted election laws, corporate laws, etc could have some positive effect.

1) Corporation and businesses are NOT people and have NO rights at all. The people who own corporations and business have rights, may participate in elections as individual humans obey regulations and elections laws. No corporate/business money, only people.

2) People may only fund elections in which they are eligible to vote. There must be a maximum funding per individual. NO tax deductions.

3) All advertising in the United States must be completely and instantly traceable to the corporations who paid for the advertising, who produced the advertising, who distributed the advertising, who presented the advertising, who made any decisions about the advertising, etc. No holes in the process. Every penny traceable through corporations/businesses to the people who made all the decisions. Truth in advertising laws need to be strict, effective, and pu8native.

4) People need to be able to take legal actions against corporations/businesses. The courts are not just there to implement corporate/business interests.

5) Political parties need to be completely private. Completely open, anyone can join and participate, anyone can join as many parties as they wish. Parties are limited to certifying candidates for office, explaining their reasons for certification, advertising their certification. They do not select and register candidates. They only choose from among those running. Parties do not appear on ballots. Only candidates appear on ballots and in random order on each ballot. Parties are not recognized in any government institution, event, or on government property. Parties are only regulated by government. Advertising laws apply.

The whole process needs to be completely open, above board, traceable instantly, etc. Every penny traceable instantly. Every public statement traceable instantly. Every statement and position by candidates and their surrogates recorded and available forever to everyone in the United States. This is a palce where government funding to support open bluesky candidacy can be extremely useful.

[snakeoil]

Bilbo-you are right. Sadly, it will not come to pass; at least anytime soon. I thought that with the Internet that the electorate would become super educated on political issues. The reverse has happened. There are so many sites that will give the true picture of what is happening in this country but people get their political education from the talking heads on the evening news. There are very few newsmen around today. The ratings determine who the newsmen and newswomen will be. Fox news and MSNBC disturb me. How can a true news organization be partisan? News should be factual and that's it. Where are Cronkite and Morrow when we need them?

As I've posted before, I am a registered Republican (I consider myself a Moderate Republican-if you want a benefit-fine-then pay for it.) I voted for Obama in 2008 and I will vote for him again Tuesday. I refuse to vote for the crazies that the GOP is throwing out there. McCain had my vote until he picked Caribou Barbie as a running mate. Now we have Romney who agrees with every voter in America no matter what the voter believes. I am also afraid of his religion. The Apostle can give his take on government and civil matters and it becomes law to Mormons.

Your statements about Corporatism are spot on and will, no doubt, elicit posts that throw doubts on your intelligence. This idea of government favoring corporatism started around the election of 1796 with John Adams. Adams favored greater commerce while Jefferson wanted to favor a farming society. In 1896, William Jennings Bryan was crushed by a wave of corporate money after he made the statement "You shall not crucify mankind on a cross of gold." It seems that corporatism is getting worse rather than better.

[justdoit]

And so the answer is??
Besides taking corp money out of the pic, Which is not going to happen as they have their greedy hands to deeply embeded in the political mess. Its pretty obvious they are running the show now and we are just along for the ride. And as they make the rules, its a win win for them.
Dem? Rep.? it matters little. There are differences in certain areas, but the banks run rampant, the defence industry runs rampant, big ag runs rampant, we cannot get our debt under control, whats the diff. Until we make the fundemental shift, we are just pawns/slaves in the making. And we are not yet ready for the shift. We as a country will eventually go through the another great depression followed by currency devaluation .
Ok, maybe I'm being a bit pessamisstic here. We can still get out of our self imposed doldrems, but intil we make our citizens a priority over corp greed, nothing substanional will be done. And why should it, those that make the rules have no problem with status quo as it is today, in either party.

[RealJustme]

1) Corporation and businesses are NOT people and have NO rights at all.

With rights comes responsibility, with responsibility comes rights...as long as a business has the responsibility to pay taxes they do in fact have rights.

Why can't liberals grasp that simple concept? They want rights without responsibility but yet demand others be responsible but have no rights. :shock:

[justdoit]

realjustme
Bull, and you talk of others of drinking the koolaid....
When a corporation can die in combat I will begin to think about the justness of your argument. It is that idea, that corporations are people is what will keep our country held as hostage and nothing more that a money machine to big business...
This is a country "of the people, by the people, and for the people" And a corporation is not a people. Never has, never will. A corporation is made for one purpose, to make money. Everything else it does is secondary to the first.

[snakeoil]

Real brilliant Justme! I pay taxes on my car, that means I can cast an extra vote for Pesident since my car is a person. I pay real estate taxes, that means I can cast another vote (I'm up to three votes now.) I bought a case of beer Saturday so I paid sales tax. I'm up to four extra votes now. I paid for tags for both of my dogs. does that mean that they have a vote too?

[justdoit]

I wonder which womb a corporation is born??

[RealJustme]

Real brilliant Justme! I pay taxes on my car, that means I can cast an extra vote for Pesident since my car is a person.

You already get to vote, what are trying to say?

[BilboBagend]

The people who own and operate corporations are people. They have their rights as individuals and as citizens.

Corporations are artificial entities created by governmental charter (contract) granted by the people. They have no rights. Only the people who own them, operate them, and do business with them have any rights and then only as individuals.


There simply is no basis for expecting or granting rights and powers to corporations. (well, other than gross corruption, greed, and abuse of the people.)

[RealJustme]

The people who own and operate corporations are people. They have their rights as individuals and as citizens.

There you go, you finally get it!

[brandon]

Dem? Rep.? it matters little. There are differences in certain areas, but the banks run rampant, the defence industry runs rampant, big ag runs rampant, we cannot get our debt under control, whats the diff. Until we make the fundemental shift, we are just pawns/slaves in the making. And we are not yet ready for the shift. We as a country will eventually go through the another great depression followed by currency devaluation .
Ok, maybe I'm being a bit pessamisstic here. We can still get out of our self imposed doldrems, but intil we make our citizens a priority over corp greed, nothing substanional will be done. And why should it, those that make the rules have no problem with status quo as it is today, in either party.

Wow! What a post.

Very well said.


But there are many who ARE ready for the "shift" . They are usually made fun of as paranoids or extremists . They are not mainstreamers, their children have been removed from government schools, they are self sufficient, fair minded, green, armed, prepared, and willing.

So let it rip. 8-)

[Shimmer]

Snake, You only get all those extra votes if you are a registered Democrat.

[BilboBagend]

ROFLMAO

A post election poll demonstrated the intelligence and honesty of Republicans.

43% of Republicans surveyed said that "ACORN" stole this most recent presidential election.