[rugrollers]

I guess I should have started a separate thread for this -- the question is of course different for contributors and viewers.

So.. for those of you who are throwing in towel....where will you land? I've always felt that VW/RC was the best place on the web. If it's gone, I don't know where I'd go. What about you?

I honestly have no idea. Like DarkJedi, I have looked elsewhere and as contributors we cannot accept the terms and conditions at any site I've checked out so far, because they make you sign over the copyright and allow them to repost and resell your submissions as they like. So does VC now. (So much for Igor's commitment to contributors' rights.)

People keep telling us we should start our own site, because they're sick of most everything on HomeClips (which is where we post). After this fiasco, I'm even less inclined to do that than before, in a way, except that I'm not sure there are any other options and it would be sad to just give this up.

I suppose if there were enough of us refugees from these sites we might be able to band together somehow. I'd be open to suggestions. Might be good to at least establish connections before this BB goes down.

Rug Roller
rugrollers@gmail.com

[Rigan]

We've been wondering the same and given VC terms we're seriously considering our future there!

[dicke811]

Have you tried voyeurconfidential.com? I think gymngirl post there from some thing I have seen when googling it.

[Suntann]

Where are you reading this about the copy rights?

[Ness]

Tann, heres what it says:


"you grant ******** and its affiliates the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights), and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, communicate to the public, perform and display the Content (in whole or in part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, for the full term of any rights that may exist in such Content. You also warrant that the holder of any Rights, including moral rights in such Content, has completely and effectively waived all such Rights and validly and irrevocably granted to you the right to grant the license stated above.

[Rigan]

dick

You may have come up with something there! TOS do not give rights to material but then again they don't prohibit them using photos posted either!

[sourdoh]

Where are you reading this about the copy rights?

http://www.********.com/tos.html

Look under "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS" for the section people seem to be taking exception to.

[dicke811]

Updated by Igor about 10 minutes ago:

VC received a few emails regarding their terms and conditions and copyright. Simon still had his "old" page up and actually nobody every looked on that page. This morning Simon had a talk with his legal advisors and the T&C have now been revised. The upload page now says:
"You are of legal age.
You understand that all information, data, text, software, photographs, graphics, video, messages, tags, or other materials ("Content") publicly posted are the sole responsibility of the person from whom such Content originated. This means that you, and not ********.com, are entirely responsible for all Content that you upload, transmit or otherwise make available via the ********.com Services." followed by the standard disclaimers.

The TOS page now says (regarding copyright):

"You acknowledge the following: (i) ******** permits access to Content that is protected by copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual and proprietary rights ("Rights"); (ii) these Rights are valid and protected in all media and technologies existing now or later developed; and (iii) except as explicitly provided otherwise, the TOS, applicable copyright, and other laws govern your use of Content. You agree that you may transmit on or through ******** only Content that (1) is not subject to any Rights, or (2) any holder of Rights has given express authorization for distribution on ********. You represent that if you upload any files, YOU have the legal authorization to do so. You agree that ******** may employ virus-checking technology to protect its system and its members from viruses. By submitting Content to any area of ********, you grant ******** and its affiliates the royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights), and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, communicate to the public, perform and display the Content (in whole or in part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, for the full term of any rights that may exist in such Content. You also permit any Member and authorized user to access, display, view, store, and reproduce the Content for PERSONAL use. Subject to the foregoing, the owner of Content placed on ******** retains any and all Rights that may exist in such Content. Upon request ******** will remove the Content from it's storage systems within four work days. The exclusive copyright of the Content stays with the original copyright holder and the original copyright holder can revoke the non-exclusive right given to ******** any time. Due to technical reasons the complete deletion of that Content might take up to 4 work days. The copy right holder must tell ******** the exact location of the Content in question, e.g. the exact URL. "

Any questions/concerns/issues that we should bring forward to the legal advisors? Anything in there which does not make any sense or is too strict? Just let me know please...and I am sure Simon and the legal team will find a a way to make (almost) everybody happy.

[DarknLadyJedi]

"royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive right (including any moral rights), and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, communicate to the public, perform and display the Content (in whole or in part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed"


OK, so they removed irrevocable, they can still put it anyplace they like, sell it to anyone they want, and transfer it in any fashion. Including making DVD's or movies and selling those separately. And in order to get them to stop you must give them the exact specific place they are using it and the exact image name, and the exact fashion you don't want them to be using it as.
The holes in the old VW T&C where holes, this blatantly allows them to do whatever they want, and puts the burden on you to find it elsewhere and stop them.

[silverdragon17]

Have you tried voyeurconfidential.com? I think gymngirl post there from some thing I have seen when googling it.

You are right Gymngirl did post there quite a bit till they had some family issue and had all their pics removed, it is a forum based website (like the RCBB) run by footman a fellow RCBB member. there are a few fellow RCBBers that post there.

[Htrn]

DJ, at least they are willing to listen to the contributors and make changes. I think if they heed the voices of the people who make the place what it is, we might get something we can live with. In the meantime, I am still just commenting and not posting any pics.

[soaK]

Dark. You should quote all of the posting! Instead of running endless rants over here you can now include your own ideas of a fair TOS declaration. What is wrong with that?



"I re-read my posting and I don't like it. Wrong procedure. The proper procedure would be:

Some contributors join this discussion, some BBers with legal background take the lead and at the end (let's say in 5 days) you or better say most of you agree on a completely new paragraph regarding the proprietary rights. I will ask our legal advisors to join the discussion whenever they believe the discussion is going into a wrong direction and have them point out the points which are important from "operator" point of view.

At the end we should have some real good text and the contributors (not the operators) formulated the proprietary ownership issue. And Simon will put it online and there we go! That's how a community where everybody respects each other should work....

And now the discussion is open and your input is very much appreciated! Thanks for participating."

[DarknLadyJedi]

Dark. You should quote all of the posting! Instead of running endless rants over here you can now include your own ideas of a fair TOS declaration. What is wrong with that?



"I re-read my posting and I don't like it. Wrong procedure. The proper procedure would be:

Some contributors join this discussion, some BBers with legal background take the lead and at the end (let's say in 5 days) you or better say most of you agree on a completely new paragraph regarding the proprietary rights. I will ask our legal advisors to join the discussion whenever they believe the discussion is going into a wrong direction and have them point out the points which are important from "operator" point of view.

At the end we should have some real good text and the contributors (not the operators) formulated the proprietary ownership issue. And Simon will put it online and there we go! That's how a community where everybody respects each other should work....

And now the discussion is open and your input is very much appreciated! Thanks for participating."

OK, quoted all of it, but only a small point matters:

"That's how a community where everybody respects each other should work...."

Igor showed no respect for the contributors when he pulled this stunt. What makes anyone think he will care to show respect later?

If Simon really is the owner/operator of VC than his comments about how he can use all of VW's content because of twisting the VW T&C shows that he has no respect for the contributors.

I am not about to join or support VC. Igor said he had proof that what he said at the beginning was true and that he would show everyone. So far he has produced no evidence to support himself at all. And every bit of evidence found independently has shown that JA has financial control and contact with the company the entire time, which give lie to the basis of Igor's story.

I have said in private emails and here publicly, if Igor can present his evidence as proof and back up his story than I wold be more than willing to give a public apology and join VC. But so far everything shows that Igor lied about what happened and about his "refugees", stole from his previous employer, and misused content that contributors believed they were giving to a single site.

[rugrollers]

Dark. You should quote all of the posting! Instead of running endless rants over here you can now include your own ideas of a fair TOS declaration. What is wrong with that?

What is wrong with it is that we now know it is virtually unenforceable and therefore must rely almost solely on trust. The person inviting this discussion is the very person who broke the same trust on the site he left just two weeks ago. Unless and until he convinces us that what he did was not a breach of trust, we would be absolute idiots to trust him again.

Other than that, I applaud the idea of an open discussion on this topic. Maybe VW can "steal" it from him if they can ever get a site built...

[NotSoSilent]

I just signed up at voyeurconfidential.com, and saw nothing worth the effort. Maybe I just have not found the right spot there. I was the only one in Chat when I signed in.

Not the I trust Igor at ********, but that site has a lot more. Heck, there is more nudity right here. While doing a search for GymGirl, I found about 45 entries, nothing was showing up when I clicked on the listing, like they were deleted.

Hopefully RedClouds will resume with a few weeks, "cause it is the best site" I've be at, not that I tried many.

[koyote]

Not sure where to from here. This map has no destinations and the roads appear to all be dead ends.
I did go ahead and "join" at VC but have only posted a couple of pics with no intentions of doing so again until some things change. IE T&C and the forever threads.
I hate that this has split so many up into two factions. Honestly I would say I/we have been on the fence the whole time. I've heard "inside" information from both sides and I still think both sides are full of shit.
My thoughts about this are that we as community were all whisteling passed the grave yard with our heads in the sand. We all thought we had found a great place to "hang out" with like minded folks run by like minded folks that actually cared. But, it always comes down to money and scew the people.
If I had the capitol and did not live in the US I swear I would start up a site similar to what we had. Yes I would make money off of it but I would be a son of a bitch about keeping those images secure through the site. Yeah I know you can't do anything about someone swiping the images but as DJ said, you can do something about the site selling or distributing them. Hell, who knows, there may be some DVD's out there with images of Lady Jedi and Shekoyote and Nikki and many others but we would never know it.
I guess if it's too good to be true it probably isn't.

But then, I'm a hippie kind of guy.
If we don't land here, I hope we all land somewhere.

[Rigan]

Looks like VC is moving to a more strict BB policy from talks on the main BB over there! We shall wait and see I suppose. At least more is happening there than here and with Mrs_rigan away now I'll take anything from the old community!

[nikki2012]

Well said koyote! Rugrollers and DarkJedi have also said quite a bit I agree with on the threads, and I certainly hope that VW is paying close attention. If they can get their act together at all, that is. It'll be a terrible shame if they can't.
I know that not all theft and reposting of contris can be prevented, but it seems that there must be some way for them to put some kind of security measures in place to prevent most of it or at least make it not so easy to do. Afterall, wouldn't they want to protect their potential profit as much as possible?
More importantly, we should be able to expect VW (or any place else we would choose to post) to refrain from distributing it elsewhere themselves.
Yes, we know we're taking a risk when we post, but as Koyote (I think it was him.) said, we thought we were taking a much more calculated risk.
If VW is unable to get their act together, I do hope we can find a place to go, but a place we can trust to take the calculated risk. That said, I don't believe ******** is the place to take that calculated risk. VC would have to do something very radical to change my mind about that.

[Dude]

Igor showed no respect for the contributors

I can`t see any respect here as well (from officials).

Do you or anyone?? It smells the past weeks but now the story here & overthere begin to stink...
In my country some people would go to jail.

[nate73]

I'm thinking about transfering my HC membership to VC just to salvage what's left of it. It's pretty obvious this site is not comming back anytime soon if even at all.

It's too bad the community paid the price for this. I met alot of great people there.
Guess all good things must come to an end!! If anyone on here remembers me from RC BB and wants to contact me you can get me at nate483@yahoo.com

[weinbergeryuma12]

We are very confused. We hoped RC would be operating. Unfortunately, nothing happens. RC Board should give an explanation of this failed announcement. It is a pity. We have been following VC, but it needs to be improved with a view to reaching the RC level. Having expected for the revival of RC, I think we are losing our confidence on this matter.

Our respects and kisses to everyone.

Weinberger

[Tokes45]

Hi All (or the few remaining)

This is MrTokes45 a member of RC since 2001. After reading all that has gone on here this is what I did, please tell me if I am on the wrong track. I went to VC used my old nick to get a new nick and password for the rest of the time I had left in my membership. That allowed me to chat, get to see who was there, and feel out the site. Now am I wrong to assume since VW/RC has nothing to do with VC I now have two memberships for the same cost I paid to renew originally. VC knew I was a member, and VW has no way to know I used my Nick to join VC. It cost me nothing to join VC, and I will get my membership time left +90 days with my original Nick from here. (If they do come back). Am I wrong?

[FAQ]

I am not about to join or support VC.

Great. Fine. No one is twisting your arm to join VC. So stop talking about VC. You have no interest in joining them, stop talking about them. Reading your harp on and on about VC makes no sense whatsoever.

[DarknLadyJedi]

I am not about to join or support VC.

Great. Fine. No one is twisting your arm to join VC. So stop talking about VC. You have no interest in joining them, stop talking about them. Reading your harp on and on about VC makes no sense whatsoever.

When they remove all the contributions I submitted to VW or prove they had the right to use those contributions I will, until then I have no problem calling them the scumbags that they have shown themselves to be.

[FAQ]

I am not about to join or support VC.

Great. Fine. No one is twisting your arm to join VC. So stop talking about VC. You have no interest in joining them, stop talking about them. Reading your harp on and on about VC makes no sense whatsoever.

When they remove all the contributions I submitted to VW or prove they had the right to use those contributions I will, until then I have no problem calling them the scumbags that they have shown themselves to be.

AFAIK, all you have to do is send them a C&D email listing the particular URLs of your content. They will remove it. Just as VW would remove it, too.

If you want to look behind the members area, use your old RC/HC accounts. Or ask someone who is over there to look for you.

But you are harping on about their Terms for NEW submissions. Makes no sense.

[rugrollers]

AFAIK, all you have to do is send them a C&D email listing the particular URLs of your content. They will remove it. Just as VW would remove it, too.

If you want to look behind the members area, use your old RC/HC accounts. Or ask someone who is over there to look for you.

But you are harping on about their Terms for NEW submissions. Makes no sense.

Makes plenty of sense to me, FAQ. Did you have pictures or videos posted on VW/RC/HC that got reposted to another site without your prior knowledge or consent, maybe? Did VW maybe ever buy a whole database of user submissions from any other site that had given assurances of copyright to its users and repost it as though that were perfectly legal and ethical?

Terms and conditions aren't mostly what we're talking about here anyway. Have you even been paying attention?

And "harping" seems odd. There's mostly a lot of harping over here by emissaries from Igor. I don't see a lot of people going over there playing emissary. I posted my views over there twice and left it at that.

Fine, some of you have longstanding loyalties to Igor that make you trust him no matter what he does. I'm not going around insulting anyone for that. Personally, what I trusted was the site to fulfill its commitment not to distribute my submissions beyond the site. So I don't trust Igor. I'm not harping, but apparently the logic of this has to be restated over and over again in the face of repetitive counter-arguments by a bunch of emissaries. Igor has not proven his case by a long shot.

If you want to engage in a reasoned debate, let's see some evidence or logic applied to the issues at hand. Why is VW behaving so bizarrely? Why hasn't Igor posted the promised documentation on VWLeaks? Why does no one seem to have filed any legal claims on either side? Is this some sort of conspiracy? Do you know anything we don't know?

[FAQ]

--snip--
If you want to engage in a reasoned debate, let's see some evidence or logic applied to the issues at hand. Why is VW behaving so bizarrely? Why hasn't Igor posted the promised documentation on VWLeaks? Why does no one seem to have filed any legal claims on either side? Is this some sort of conspiracy? Do you know anything we don't know?

VW is behaving bizarrely because Igor and many others left all at once. They are scrambling to re-build. Ghost admitted to taking down the sites to keep them from stealing more. That is bizarre simply because Igor et al probably already had everything they wanted. Booby traps were the BB inventions.

Igor probably cooled his head after talking with the lawyers and the posting of his name diminished. Posting their names, would just lead to VW posting other people's names as well. Mutual exposure does neither side any good. Add to this lawyers work slow and want no risks taken.

No one who wishes to remain anonymous files charges or claims.

Conspiracies are when two or more people act in concert, and yes, Igor and others did that. (and before it is said again, Igor knew the site was not coming back anytime soon because the techs could tell him that.)

Yes, I know something you do not. And no, I will not tell you. Things told to me in confidence will remain confidential.

[rockclimber]

FAQ

This is almost painful to watch this mess, all sides lose out with this continued conflict.

I mentioned earlier the weather down in Florida and its undoubted affect on any and all business activity. Today, 35000 businesses were withut electricity in FL. I just saw a picture of a shark swiming down Bayshore for crimminy sakes! I mentioned that as a possible explaination for the delay in getting the site up.

I do certainly hope for measurable progress in the near term. Get lipstick on this pig and lett her run, fix and improve on the fly, each day a new roll out. Now THAT will attract traffic!

The whole VW community would be well served by bringing us up something, show some incremental improvements and bring some sort of submission process even as a stop gap measure.

VW exists because people feel comfortable letting their inner private sides show. They NEED to have confidence and need reassurance that their submissions are their own intelectual property without encumberance. They need security in their personal information and they need that reassurance in a respectful detailed professional manner. And they need their sense of community restored.

Repsectfully offered, and hopefully sensibly received......

Let's all hope for an amicable resolution and a speedy return, for everyones benefit and fun....


RC and Winston

(actally he is snoring on the couch atm, but I'm sure he would agree, especially if bacon were involved in any manner....)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[xibitionist]

I could get a basic site with picture sharing capabilities similar to flickr and a good forum goingwithin a few days if someone wants in on that.

[Stacy69]

Yes, I know something you do not. And no, I will not tell you. Things told to me in confidence will remain confidential.

FAQ, all I'd like to know is if VW/RC will be coming back. Not even a timetable necessarily, but is it coming back or does the rumor being circulated about selling the domains to a gambling site have merit?

It would be a shocking move and epic mistake to sell to a gambling site. This site has so much going for it still.

[oberon3]

Dark. You should quote all of the posting! Instead of running endless rants over here you can now include your own ideas of a fair TOS declaration. What is wrong with that?



"I re-read my posting and I don't like it. Wrong procedure. The proper procedure would be:

Some contributors join this discussion, some BBers with legal background take the lead and at the end (let's say in 5 days) you or better say most of you agree on a completely new paragraph regarding the proprietary rights. I will ask our legal advisors to join the discussion whenever they believe the discussion is going into a wrong direction and have them point out the points which are important from "operator" point of view.

At the end we should have some real good text and the contributors (not the operators) formulated the proprietary ownership issue. And Simon will put it online and there we go! That's how a community where everybody respects each other should work....

And now the discussion is open and your input is very much appreciated! Thanks for participating."

Bingo. So those who don't like it.... ask for a change, or hold your peace.

[FAQ]

--snip--
It would be a shocking move and epic mistake to sell to a gambling site.
--snip--

Did no one pay attention? Was I the only one to read the articles?

http://web.archive.org/web/201107211804 ... poker.com/

VW had a poker site. VW does not need to "sell" to the gambling site.

[Stacy69]

--snip--
It would be a shocking move and epic mistake to sell to a gambling site.
--snip--

Did no one pay attention? Was I the only one to read the articles?

http://web.archive.org/web/201107211804 ... poker.com/

VW had a poker site. VW does not need to "sell" to the gambling site.

VW also had a site that for the time being is not in existence. The VW poker site was a whitelabel, it was not owned by VW (only the domain was).

[VWPublicRelations]

Well said koyote! Rugrollers and DarkJedi have also said quite a bit I agree with on the threads, and I certainly hope that VW is paying close attention. If they can get their act together at all, that is. It'll be a terrible shame if they can't.
I know that not all theft and reposting of contris can be prevented, but it seems that there must be some way for them to put some kind of security measures in place to prevent most of it or at least make it not so easy to do. Afterall, wouldn't they want to protect their potential profit as much as possible?
More importantly, we should be able to expect VW (or any place else we would choose to post) to refrain from distributing it elsewhere themselves.
Yes, we know we're taking a risk when we post, but as Koyote (I think it was him.) said, we thought we were taking a much more calculated risk.
If VW is unable to get their act together, I do hope we can find a place to go, but a place we can trust to take the calculated risk. That said, I don't believe ******** is the place to take that calculated risk. VC would have to do something very radical to change my mind about that.

No need to go anywhere else. Your pictures were not released, they were stolen by someone whom you all knew to be Igor, for his own benefit. If he can engaged in such despicable conduct, then he can engage in anything that is unethical. The analogy here would be like protecting your own furniture at your house from your children. Igor was part of the VW team , but he went stray and decided to engage in criminal conduct. That does not constitute lack of security on our part. It is not like someone from the outside was able to hack into our database. it was someone from within.
The risk remains very much calculated with VW. So hang in there and let me know if you receive recent email blast to all of you guys!

[sbandbb]

Katherine, you mention an email blast. The last email I have from "billing@redclouds.com" was June 28th saying an email with new credentials would be coming soon and we would choose which site they would apply towards.
Has there been something since then?
Suzie B and Mr B

[BigRich25]

Well said koyote! Rugrollers and DarkJedi have also said quite a bit I agree with on the threads, and I certainly hope that VW is paying close attention. If they can get their act together at all, that is. It'll be a terrible shame if they can't.
I know that not all theft and reposting of contris can be prevented, but it seems that there must be some way for them to put some kind of security measures in place to prevent most of it or at least make it not so easy to do. Afterall, wouldn't they want to protect their potential profit as much as possible?
More importantly, we should be able to expect VW (or any place else we would choose to post) to refrain from distributing it elsewhere themselves.
Yes, we know we're taking a risk when we post, but as Koyote (I think it was him.) said, we thought we were taking a much more calculated risk.
If VW is unable to get their act together, I do hope we can find a place to go, but a place we can trust to take the calculated risk. That said, I don't believe ******** is the place to take that calculated risk. VC would have to do something very radical to change my mind about that.

Nikki, once you decide to go (here, there, where ever), please let us know where that is.

[nevadajay]

Email blast? I must have been 'overlooked'.

[redruggers]

Email blast? I must have been 'overlooked'.

Yep, same with us.

I don't know why Katherine exhumed this thread from way down in the list, but I guess the original question is as valid as it was a couple of weeks ago -- where to now?

If there are other contributors like us who will none too soon, if ever, be willing to trust either of these sites again, feel free to drop us a line.

rugrollers at gmail dot com

[VWPublicRelations]

Hi All (or the few remaining)

This is MrTokes45 a member of RC since 2001. After reading all that has gone on here this is what I did, please tell me if I am on the wrong track. I went to VC used my old nick to get a new nick and password for the rest of the time I had left in my membership. That allowed me to chat, get to see who was there, and feel out the site. Now am I wrong to assume since VW/RC has nothing to do with VC I now have two memberships for the same cost I paid to renew originally. VC knew I was a member, and VW has no way to know I used my Nick to join VC. It cost me nothing to join VC, and I will get my membership time left +90 days with my original Nick from here. (If they do come back). Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. First of all, that site is a scam, contains illegally pirated and obtained data in violation of cyberspace laws so it will not be on line for much longer. Second of tall, it seems like the duration of your membership is being honored there, but not so fast-- you do not get an extension of your membership- all you get is 100 free days after which you have to pay which means you will have to pay double

We are on the verge of launching. Why would u go to a site who a thief stole --esp that you have been a member of RC since 2001. By the way, all of RC is coming back- just a little bit more patience