[Mozk]

I'm sad to see katia's pics and videos are being posted on Igor's site does this mean she has abandoned us??????

[MrButler]

Let's wait and see. I guess some VWers were sooooo bored they decided to post there......
I guess, when the Site is back they will return....like 'if you build it, they will come' :-)

[zardoz1962]

I would doubt that. She is I think gone from VW

There are a small number of people such as Katia and Carrie who are long-time Igor supporters and friends, have been very vocal about it, and who have posted there to help him. If it turns out Igor is a fraud, I expect they will be too disbeleiving of VW to return or be too embarassed to come back and may not be welcome anyway.

There are a small number of people such as Lady Jedi and LisaJane who are long-time VW supporters and friends (or maybe Igor haters and enemies. I don't know details but its the same result), have been very vocal about it, and who have posted here to help VW. If it turns out VW is a fraud, I expect they will be too disbeleiving of Igor to go over or be too embarrassed to go over and may not be welcome anyway.

Either way, both groups have thrown in on a side and as far as they are concerned it is that side or none.

The 99% is going to wait until it is clear who, if anyone, they beleive then settle in one or the other or go elsewhere. No matter what though, a few visible and loved posters will not be seen again.

[DarknLadyJedi]

There are a small number of people such as Lady Jedi and LisaJane who are long-time VW supporters and friends (or maybe Igor haters and enemies. I don't know details but its the same result), have been very vocal about it, and who have posted here to help VW. If it turns out VW is a fraud, I expect they will be too embarrassed to go over and may not be welcome anyway.

If Igor actually presented his proof, or even followed through with his "VWLeaks page" that he promised he would show everyone over a week ago I would be happy to believe his BS story. But as it stands all he has said is that he doesn't give a shit where the contributors thought they were agreeing to have their pictures displayed he is going to give/sell them to whomever he wants.

[zardoz1962]

If Igor actually presented his proof, or even followed through with his "VWLeaks page" that he promised he would show everyone over a week ago I would be happy to believe his BS story. But as it stands all he has said is that he doesn't give a shit where the contributors thought they were agreeing to have their pictures displayed he is going to give/sell them to whomever he wants.

I edited to allow for that possibility.

I agree with you. Igor made a lot of noise about the page he would present and announced over a week ago he had given his lawyers his OK, but still no page and no explanation why not. Not a good sign.

I chose four visible ladies (since we all pay more attention to them anyway) but there are regular text posters as well. My point is that there are posters on both forums who have been so vocal in their support of one side and so accusitory to the other side that, even if proved utterly wrong, it is hard to see them being both willing and able to change sides.


I am pretty much unchanged in my first conclusion two weeks ago. This is a break between the workers/companies on the money / management side (VW) and on the community / content side (VC).

The money side has little or no ability to create web content, does not understand the community or basic web standards of behavior, and is content to treat us as content and contributors. I am very concerned about the money sides basic lack of understanding of the entire concept of security, something which the financial and credit card processing company should have been concerned with above all else. They also seem to have no real understanding of the difference between public relations (which is by design usually a bit of non-transparent story telling and spin for short-term gain) and community relations (which is the job Katherine is really doing and must be responsive, truthful, and transparent at all times to build long-term relationships).

The community side has little or no understanding of business standards of behavior. It has been said many, many times that there are ways Igor could have left which would have gotten him everything he has now and more while, if his account is correct, left VW in the exact same state as they are now with no possible fingers to point. His disappearnace for the first couple of days does not make him look good, nor does his failure to follow through a on a few significant promises of evidence. His concern seems to be to be first to content and to assume he will outlast the story.

I am still not ready to throw in with one or the other.


I do however think contibutors on both sides are wrong to declare they will never move to one or the other side. We have incomplete, contradictory, and purposely confusing information from both sides and there is plenty of room for either or both sides to be completely in the right, or completely in the wrong, or anywhere inbetween.

[DarknLadyJedi]

I do however think contibutors on both sides are wrong to declare they will never move to one or the other side. We have incomplete, contradictory, and purposely confusing information from both sides and there is plenty of room for either or both sides to be completely in the right, or completely in the wrong, or anywhere inbetween.

I agree, and while I have been very vocal in my support of VW, I have also been willing, from the beginning to switch. But ONLY if Igor can provide clear, concise, and convincing evidence that he is completely right.

When I first heard about this Saturday evening I figured it was a hacking attempt and that Igor's letter was BS. I decided to wait until Monday afternoon/evening to let the tech people fix whatever happened.

By Monday we had VW's version of events. A little digging showed the holes in Igor's story. It wasn't until Wednesday that Igor bothered to make his next report, and that was to threaten to show his evidence the next day, which he kept putting off, and still has not done.

Do I think VW is 100% right? Hell no, nor are they being remotely transparent and honest enough with us.

But...let me pose a hypothetical question for everyone.

According to Igor VoyeurWeb was a combination of 3rd party businesses that each had a part of the overall operation and so each had full rights to everything. This is the basis for his explanation as to why he can use any content that was ever uploaded to any VW site. And he claims that the content he has came from one of these 3rd party companies and not from him copying everything before he left.

Igor claims he did not start looking for a new home for “the community” until after February 1, 2012.

ModelsForFun came around way before February 1, 2012. So if what Igor is saying about JA not being involved until then is true then he had nothing to do with MFF being a part of VW.

So, say some random 3rd party company of VW had decided they didn’t like the way Igor was taking VW when he added MFF to the mix. What if they, some unknown partner of VW, had given all the content to another brand new website? What if their excuse was that they had as much right to that content as any other member of the VW group, and that they felt Igor was taking VW in the wrong direction and they felt that this would be a better community for everyone?

Now remember, we aren’t talking about Igor here, we are talking about a random 3rd party in this mish-mash that Igor claims all had equal rights to that content.

How would you feel about that? Would you feel they had any right to give that content to some startup site that’s less than a year old? Given to a webmaster that they had never even met a few months earlier?

[zardoz1962]

ModelsForFun came around way before February 1, 2012. So if what Igor is saying about JA not being involved until then is true then he had nothing to do with MFF being a part of VW.

So, say some random 3rd party company of VW had decided they didn’t like the way Igor was taking VW when he added MFF to the mix. What if they, some unknown partner of VW, had given all the content to another brand new website? What if their excuse was that they had as much right to that content as any other member of the VW group, and that they felt Igor was taking VW in the wrong direction and they felt that this would be a better community for everyone?

Now remember, we aren’t talking about Igor here, we are talking about a random 3rd party in this mish-mash that Igor claims all had equal rights to that content.

How would you feel about that? Would you feel they had any right to give that content to some startup site that’s less than a year old? Given to a webmaster that they had never even met a few months earlier?

If I believe Igors version of the events (please note the "if"), I would't see this quite the same.

Igor is saying the contibutors had given permission to the group of companies that together made VW. In that case, one company in the group responsible for the website on which those contributions appeared has been replaced with another with another (with the old company continuing to claim it has the rights). It would not be true that he "gave" the contris to VC or that VC now has any rights to them without the other VW member companies agreement. Your contries were sent to the VW group and the group has simply renamed itself and replaced a few members.

Don;t anyone argue with me on this. I did say "if" and am not at all saying this is true, simply that it is a plausible and consistent story.


The three big issues for me on the VC side are:

1) Igor has never addressed whose idea MFF was. I don't mind them being on the site (I think watchersweb for instance does this in a very suitable way that probably still can generate some income). Mixing them in with other contris though is an awful idea and a real betrayal of what VW is supposed to be. I raised this issue on that side, but it drew no comments or replies.

2) Your detective work has poked some holes in the VC verson of events, most particularly in Igors accounts of JAs involvement that have never been addressed.

3) I've yet to see anything that substantiates the existence of a VW network of companies.

The three big issues for me on the VW side are:

1) VW has a terrible attitude. They have consitently treated the posters here with contempt. Referring to an employee (assuming Igor was an employee) who was there from the start as "puny", etc. right out of the gate is vindictive and incorrect, no matter what is the truth. Their attempts at PM, site and community management, disaster response, and security (which by all rights should be the one thing we shoudl be 100% confident they do know) are pathetic. Finally VW has also never accepted any responsibility for MFF. It is clearly the red-headed step-child in this mix.

2) VWs story has been wildly inconsistent from the start. From "Igor crashed the site" to "We took the site down" to "Igor may have left code traps" (which was allowed to morph to "Igor did leave code traps" with no proof). From "Igor was a puny, replacable, exchangable employee" to the way Igor became the fall guy for everything wrong - who made MFF, who was responsible for payments, who was driving contributors away. It seemed the "puny employee" was doing the jobs of three or four people.

3) VW never showed any proof the "VW member companies" scenario was not correct and there are things that suggest it is - their lack of control over the HoF, PG, and a few periphery sites, their lack of the off-site backups any web services company keeps as a routine matter, their lack of control over the servers (I mean why set up a new server when you could just wipe one of the servers in your content delivery system and install there with company named email right from the start). If the new VW does not come up on the same servers as the old VW, I will be very suspicious.

[DarknLadyJedi]

If I believe Igors version of the events (please note the "if"), I would't see this quite the same.

I agree, everything posted on this subject is "if"

Igor is saying the contibutors had given permission to the group of companies that together made VW. In that case, one company in the group responsible for the website on which those contributions appeared has been replaced with another with another (with the old company continuing to claim it has the rights). It would not be true that he "gave" the contris to VC or that VC now has any rights to them without the other VW member companies agreement. Your contries were sent to the VW group and the group has simply renamed itself and replaced a few members.

Don;t anyone argue with me on this. I did say "if" and am not at all saying this is true, simply that it is a plausible and consistent story.

If Igor had said that VC was now part of the network that might be true. But He has consistently stated that he has no control over VC nor interest in VC in that manner. He can't have it as part of the network and not be connected to it.

The three big issues for me on the VC side are:

1) Igor has never addressed whose idea MFF was. I don't mind them being on the site (I think watchersweb for instance does this in a very suitable way that probably still can generate some income). Mixing them in with other contris though is an awful idea and a real betrayal of what VW is supposed to be. I raised this issue on that side, but it drew no comments or replies.

We'll if Igor is tellingthe truth on his side, then it has to be his idea, if JA is telling the truth on his side then it has to be his idea. Just no one wants to claim it now that they know how much it was hated.

2) Your detective work has poked some holes in the VC verson of events, most particularly in Igors accounts of JAs involvement that have never been addressed.

3) I've yet to see anything that substantiates the existence of a VW network of companies.

Thank you, and I agree. I also haven't seen anyone step forward to say that they were consulted by Igor prior to the move, knew about it, and were part of the "refugees" that he claims preplanned to come with him.

The three big issues for me on the VW side are:

1) VW has a terrible attitude. They have consitently treated the posters here with contempt. Referring to an employee (assuming Igor was an employee) who was there from the start as "puny", etc. right out of the gate is vindictive and incorrect, no matter what is the truth. Their attempts at PM, site and community management, disaster response, and security (which by all rights should be the one thing we shoudl be 100% confident they do know) are pathetic. Finally VW has also never accepted any responsibility for MFF. It is clearly the red-headed step-child in this mix.

I honestly think this was a case of fish out of water. Katherine probably has some PR experience setting up public releases and making a straightforward pitch about them. But it seems like she had no idea how to handle a direct response from a hostile audience. I exchanged several emails with her and between those and the boards this was the conclusion I drew. As far as some things, when the boss says this is how you will refer to X, then you do what you are told regardless of how it makes you look.

For security, this really scares me, I went and checked an old renewal email for RC. In the email was my log in name and my log in password in plain type. Makes me think they have never encrypted the passwords. Emails date back to 2009 still in storage.

2) VWs story has been wildly inconsistent from the start. From "Igor crashed the site" to "We took the site down" to "Igor may have left code traps" (which was allowed to morph to "Igor did leave code traps" with no proof). From "Igor was a puny, replacable, exchangable employee" to the way Igor became the fall guy for everything wrong - who made MFF, who was responsible for payments, who was driving contributors away. It seemed the "puny employee" was doing the jobs of three or four people.

Eh, considering that the initial response was so cluster-fucked I'll give them a pass on this one personally.

3) VW never showed any proof the "VW member companies" scenario was not correct and there are things that suggest it is - their lack of control over the HoF, PG, and a few periphery sites, their lack of the off-site backups any web services company keeps as a routine matter, their lack of control over the servers (I mean why set up a new server when you could just wipe one of the servers in your content delivery system and install there with company named email right from the start). If the new VW does not come up on the same servers as the old VW, I will be very suspicious.

The original main servers (as of the tantrum) were located in Ontario Canada. The new ones will most likely be in Tampa, where the new Systems Admin is located.

And no, they never showed any proof of anything at all. Which is sort of sad, but honestly except for refuting Igor's statements I didn't expect them to. And they shouldn't have to, Igor was the one that left with the content, it falls on him to prove what he says is correct IMHO.

[MadisonWI]

Unfortunately it looks like quite a few former VW contributors are now posting pics at VC... will be interesting to see how many (or how few) remain here... In the end, that will determine how many paying members stay as well.

Lesson #1: Business Continuity - you can't just go offline for 2 weeks without losing members, you should have at least put up something, even if just temporary.

[nevadajay]

Wow....way too much time on hands these days...to spend this much time sleuthing about a porn site gone wrong. Weird...very, very weird. But it is entertaining to read - I will admit that.

[boltupright36067]

She's not real

[rugrollers]

Wow....way too much time on hands these days...to spend this much time sleuthing about a porn site gone wrong. Weird...very, very weird. But it is entertaining to read - I will admit that.

Wrong.

This is how truth is produced in the social world, especially when real evidence is spotty. Take a position and argue it out as far as it will go, but without losing sight of the possibility that you are wrong.

Thanks, guys. I would have joined in, but I had family obligations tonight. I guess my cultural/psychological angle on all of this will have to await another day.

And what will that day look like? VW wise....

[rugrollers]

Thanks, Sunoffire, I think we get your point -- Igor's diehards are mentally deranged and can't construct a coherent argument or bring evidence to bear.

That's sad for them/you.

I don't think it necessarily reflects ill on Igor himself.

[KatiaKit]

I didn't abandon you guys!! I'm posting on both sites these days...

xo

[VWSupport]

Beautiful, so glad to see you posting! I love the top, you look incredible in it.

[KatiaKit]

Thank you Kiki!!! We love it here...