Political discussions about everything
By snakeoil
#39734
Here is an infographic that pretty much tells the story of where the middle class is today, state by state. It is well worth studying it and reflecting on what it means.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-1 ... nfographic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. Notice that only 7 states make average income is $60,000 or more.

2. Notice that the ultra-conservative South is the poorest in the country and the "Red States" are usually much poorer than the average.

3. Notice that our skilled middle class workers are in demand in emerging markets.
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By RealJustme
#39735
Wow it does document Obama's destruction. It says that most Americans made 20% less in adjusted dollars than when Obama came into office.
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By brandon
#39741
Snake has been pointing out lots of bad news for the middle class lately. And pointing at "conservatives" and "red states". Obama and the Dems have had years to implement and demonstrate their grand economic solutions. The only one I'm aware of is to raise the minimum wage for 2% of the workforce.

I guess it is time to point fingers. :lol:
By snakeoil
#39751
Brandon...I am not pointing fingers at anyone. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. This has been years in the making and both parties are to blame for the mess we are in. As I stated in my other post; when you blindly follow the left or the right you are limiting yourself to options. The main problem is that all politicians (black/white...liberal/conservative) concentrate more on getting reelected than on the issues facing this country. There are solutions to our problems if our "leaders" would only attempt to seek them out.
By snakeoil
#39752
Justme...I'm sorry to confuse you, but I thought that if I directed you to pictures you would be able to understand the post better. This downward spiral of the middle class began about the time of the Reagon administration and has gained momentum year after year. Neither party has been able to reverse the trend.
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By RealJustme
#39753
There are solutions to our problems if our "leaders" would only attempt to seek them out.
So what's your solutions. Let me guess, strengthen the unions, increase public school budgets, carbon taxes and of course increased spending.
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By brandon
#39755
Well then Snake, maybe you could stop chastising the unwashed here and post your solutions.

Or you can take your ball and go home crying like Grog and his followers.

I give you credit for your non partisan sentiments. So let's see what you think.
By snakeoil
#39787
Alright Brandon, but you're not going to like some of them.

1. Urgent! Fix our infrastructure. We could start an infrastructure bank funded by a modest increase in the gas tax. Make this fund off limits to Congress except fpr use for infrastructure improvements and repair. With the interest rates effectively about zero we might even borrow the money to start the fund until taxes could be raised to make the fund sustainable. a 1% surcharge on taxes could also be a solution. It must be remembered that there is no free lunch. This is urgent as business loses tons of money sitting in traffic tieups and damage to trucks due to potholrd, etc. An ombudsman, withpower to prosecute, should bve appointed to protect against cost overruns, theft, make-work projects, fraud and to make sure that work is done properly and to specifications. This would create many thousands of construction jobs and the wages would have a ripple effect on the economy and the increased money pumped into the economy would help to "raise all boats."

2. Taxes. This is complicated. The solution must include all countries in the United Nations. All nations must agree to turn over any taxes that would be due to the country that is owed the taxes, An international court would be enpowered to adjudicate disputed cases. Although I doubt that I will ever see it; an international taxation code should be enacted to deter companies from seeking out tax havens. Let me illustrate how some coumtris act. Nevis is a small Caribbean island country that has become a tax haven. To find out ANY information about a Nevis corporation or corporation that banks in Nevis you have to file a petition with the courts, post a $25,000 bond and hire a Nevis attorney to act on your behalf with the courts. No non-Nevis attorney can have any action with a Nevis court. Nevis courts usually side with the corporations and the judge might keep uour bond if he considers the petition the be frivilous.

3. Taxes continued. Our tax code should be revised to make it simple. Taxes would be removed from all taxable income before you get it at the rate set by law. You would not have the option of claiming more dependents than you actually have. In some countries it is not necessary to file at the end of the year unless you have overpaid that year. This would greatly decrease the necessity to have a huge IRS and much of the work now done by the IRS could be done by computers. This would also allow taxpayers to keep the money they have to spend each year to prpare their taxes. This would be a huge saving to corporations.

4. Health care. The government must have the ability to negociate drug prices for any governemnt program that pays for and/or prescribes drugs. Under the Prescription drug plan it is a crime for government to even attempt to negociate drug prices for the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. Medical costs should have some mechianism to regulate what doctors can charge. Example. I recently had a minor surgical procedure. I was given a sedative to keep me calm during the procedure. The entire procedure took about 20 minutes. I got a bill from the anesthesiologist for $3,000. I didn't even know that he was involved. I thought the surgeon admsinstered the drug. Every one of us has wondered why a hospital charges $16 for an aspirin. There is a master list of everything that a hospital uses or does that every hospital ues. The master list has no basis on reality but each hospital uses it anyway. Charges from doctors and hospitals must be based on actual costs not the master idex.

5.. Pensions. Pensions should be inviolate. Pensions have become the cash cow of corporate raiders and, in a bankruptcy, the Federal government is left holding the bag for the pensions. Pension are a part of the salary that is paid to workers. Workers should not lose their pensions due to a company's banruptcy or because a company wants to use the pension fund to balance their P/L statement. Military and government pensions are weighing down state and federal governments. In some locals it is possible to retire after 20 years with 50% to 75% of your base salary. A change that would brings howls from many would be that the pension would be paid at the age the pensioner is eligible for Social Security. This would relieve much of the burden on the states and federal government. Disability pensions would not be affected.

6. Education. Each of us would probably admit that we are not getting the most bang for our education dollar. Many, many other countries are doinfg much better than us with less investment. We could ask for help (shudder, shudder.) We could possibly ask for an international committee of the best anf most efficient countries to study our school systems and issue recommendations. We must set our pride aside for a minute; only a fool would turn down help from an expert.

Note: The above might seem like I am favoring corporations and the federal governmnet but think about it. I am trying to decrease the need for big government, create fairness for all and bring more revenue into the state and federal government wiithout raising taxes. This in itself would go far to help the middle class. Number 6-if we could increase the effectiveness of our educational system it would go far to create a new middle class.

I'll continue with more later.
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By RealJustme
#39788
Told you what your solution would be, spending, taxes, more taxes, support union benefits and of course more money for schools. Nothing about reduced spending, reducing red tape on businesses to increase jobs, reducing the size of the government, trashing our current broken public school system to get their costs under control and putting them back in the job of teaching....in other words you have no solutions just more problems.
By snakeoil
#39790
Sorry I don't have the ability to reduce my post to pictures for you so that you could understand it Justme. If you would look at my post again you would find that I don't mention unions anywhere. I don't mention adding more money to education, only getting those that do have a well functioning educational system to study our system and make recommendations. As the the new taxes for the infrastructure; this is critical. Remember the bridge collaspe a few yeas ago killing people? These taxes would save business huge amounts and increase profits and hopefully those profits would increase jobs. Over 70% of our infrastructure is in dire need of rpair. In this, I must remind you, there is no free lunch. as to taxes, I did not mention raising the income tax. The changes I propose would bring tons of money into the fed's coffers without any increase in taxes.
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By RealJustme
#39791
If you would look at my post again you would find that I don't mention unions anywhere.
Oh really, your own words
Workers should not lose their pensions due to a company's banruptcy or because a company wants to use the pension fund to balance their P/L statement.
That's the union's number one battle cry.
I don't mention adding more money to education, only getting those that do have a well functioning educational system to study our system and make recommendations
You are aware that educators don't consider how educated the children are when they rank well functioning schools don't you? They rank schools based upon how much money per student they receive, the smaller the class size the better, the more benefits and pay teacher's receive, those are the type of items that are taken into consideration when educators rank schools...not grades. The number 1 ranked high school district in my State also has some of the highest drop outs and lowest numbers who can get into colleges...but they receive tons of money, the teachers are the best paid, the class sizes are the smallest and every teacher has their own full time salaried teacher's aide. Sooo, my friend it's all about giving the schools more money to make it a better system for them.

If you were sincere about wanting to "better educate" pubic schools would mimic private schools who operate at a fraction of the costs but turn our far better educated children...but teachers can be fired for poor performance and promotions/pay increases are also based upon performance, all items that our educators would never stand for. So your solution is more money.
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By brandon
#39793
No new taxes for infrastructure Snake. Find another way. Just not on the working classes. And yes we need to bust those corporations and tax cheats. Reduce our bloated military spending too. And foreign aid. I also agree that there needs to be controls on what doctors can charge. And doesn't it seem ridiculous to round up millions of children in buses everyday and ship them off to brick and mortar schools to change classes, take recess, lunch, and be shipped back home ? I also like the Medicaid expansion for the poor and working poor that's taking place as a result of the ACA.

:P

And you hit it on the money with the pensioners. Just look at the raids that took place at Hostess. Remember? Sure the unions did their thing, but you never heard a word about the huge salaries and bonuses raided from the pension fund. Especially not from the conservatives here.

I reside in a huge military area full of still young military retirees double dipping and reducing wages for regular working folks because they will work for much less thanks to their bloodsucking. You can hear them in all seven cities and the countryside demanding their military discount.
By snakeoil
#39798
Justme-Do you ever have any original thoughts or are the Koch Brothers mantra seared into your brain? As to your post; again, I didn't mention unions. I do not come from a union environment so union or non-union never crossed my mind. As to your comments on education. you should be ashamed of yourself. There are tons of good teachers in the system and I doubt that you have the inclination or education to do the job. In my state all teachers must get their master's degree within a certain period of time. How many hours a week do you voluteer at your local school? Don't turn this around on me as I taught in adult education for ten years. I was paid minimum wage for this.

Another thought Justme. You do not really have to spout your cracked philosophy every time someone posts. I have never seen you post anything positive.
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By RealJustme
#39800
Another thought Justme. You do not really have to spout your cracked philosophy every time someone posts. I have never seen you post anything positive.
That's because I normally express my views on our current Government and the way it's run, it's really hard to come up with anything positive to say for anything except our military and even that is being destroyed.

As far as not liking teachers, where the hell did you get that from? Teachers do a valuable job, they're trusted with our children, it's the teacher's unions and our public school system that I take issue with.
By snakeoil
#39813
As far as not liking teachers, where the hell did you get that from? Teachers do a valuable job, they're trusted with our children, it's the teacher's unions and our public school system that I take issue with.
I don't see how you can seperate the teachers and the teachers union. The teacher's union elections are run more democratically than our political elections in the US. No gerrymandering, restrictive rules, restrictive hours in which to vote and anyone can run for office. Therefore, the officers of the teachers's union ARE the teachers. So, in my eyes, the teacher's union is the voice of the majority of the teachers.

On another note; I have been taken to task for proposing a slight increase in the gas tax. I ask the board to consider these points. The ultra severe winter we have just experienced has played havoc with our infrastructure. The mpg of today's cars are almost double what it was 20 years ago. More hybrids and electric cars are on the road today and, while I don't envision electric cars being in the majority anytime soon, they will continue to increase as technology and consumer sentiment improves. This will result in a decrease in the highway trust funds that our gas tax provides.
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By RealJustme
#39815
This will result in a decrease in the highway trust funds that our gas tax provides
A good case for a "use" tax on cars that get better mileage, raising the tax on gas doesn't resolved that. Electric cars should not only have to pay a carbon tax for all the coal that has to be burned to keep them on the road but also a very large "road use tax" since they aren't paying transportation taxes through gas but use the roads.

By the way I do my part of paying highway taxes, both of my cars are gas guzzlers, it's those damn hybrids that are getting free rides and it has to stop.
By snakeoil
#39837
Median per capita income was $18,700 in the United States in 2010 (which translates to about $75,000 for a family of four after taxes), up 20 percent since 1980 but virtually unchanged since 2000, after adjusting for inflation. The same measure, by comparison, rose about 20 percent in Britain between 2000 and 2010 and 14 percent in the Netherlands. Median income also rose 20 percent in Canada between 2000 and 2010, to the equivalent of $18,700.

The most recent year in the LIS analysis is 2010. But other income surveys, conducted by government agencies, suggest that since 2010 pay in Canada has risen faster than pay in the United States and is now most likely higher. Pay in several European countries has also risen faster since 2010 than it has in the United States.
This from-http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upsho ... ml?hp&_r=1
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By RealJustme
#39839
President Obama likes to talk about income inequality, but what matters far more is the actual income of the typical American. And how has the typical American household income fared on Obama's watch? Well, the economic "recovery" has now spanned an Olympiad, and during that time the typical American household income has not only dropped—it has dropped more than twice as much as it did during the recession.

During the recovery—that is, from the officially defined end of the recession (in June 2009) to the most recent month for which figures are available (June 2013)—the median American household income has fallen by $2,380 (from $54,478 to $52,098). So the typical American household is making almost $2,400 less per year (in constant 2013 dollars) than it was four years ago, when the Obama "recovery" began.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/inc ... 50068.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's not leadership
By snakeoil
#39879
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upsho ... ml?hp&_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice little infographic on how Washington spends our money. Notice that the military takes almost 25% of the budget. Also, Unemployment and the debt take almost another 25%. If we could get full employment, this would trim both of these to a far more managable level. On the military, China spends 1/6 th of what we do on their military.
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By RealJustme
#39883
China spends 1/6 th of what we do on their military.
They also spend 1/8th of what we do on education but their students score higher than ours, go figure that they have a far better public education system than ours at a fraction of the price. I don't think they can say that about their military compared to ours, the only thing our Government does do right is our military.
By sillydaddy
#39886
They spend less on education because they pay less. They pay their teachers next to nothing. Imagine a Chinese elementary teacher making $45K a year...never happen! But when it come to higher education, the Chinese and the rest of the world come here. We educate their doctors, etc.

True the Chinese have a large military but lack the transportation to move quickly. At last count they had only one aircraft carrier active and one under construction. The US has 10 active, 2 reserve and 3 under construction.
By Benny
#40170
This downward spiral of the middle class began about the time of the Reagon administration and has gained momentum year after year.


You also said the late seventies in your other middle class thread Snake. And you are correct. That's also roughly the time home equity loans came into existence ( or was it the late sixties I'm not sure, but close enough) and the AMC started signing their life's work over to the greedy Bloodsuckers for that instant cash. Wealth and achievement that should have been passed on to their children.

Its fucking hilarious how blind you guys are. Wait, you have two mortgages and credit card debts don't you? And you need a better job to keep up. Even if you could pay it off early they would soak you. :lol:
By johnforbes
#40182
Take GM, which has about 71 billion in pension obligations.

It has 400,000 blue collar and 118,000 white collar retirees.

The problem is that GM's pension obligation exceeds the market value of the company by about 20 billion.

Now in an ideal world, of course corporations should fund pensions and help provide retiree health care.

But we don't live in an ideal world and defined benefit pensions have been replaced by defined contribution accounts.

GM's "managers" were derelict in not noticing this before it was too late.
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By RealJustme
#40192
GM's "managers" were derelict in not noticing this before it was too late.
They got theirs, just as Obama is getting his, they don't give a damn about those that follow as long as they get to party down. Obama has bought a lot of votes and friends spending money we don't have.
By snakeoil
#40245
Now for a break from Justme's rabid ranting about everything Obama and the premise that all of the world's ills are the fault of Obama.

Yesterday, CNN broke the news that home mortgage applications are the lowest in 14 years.

Why?

62% of American workers make $20,000 a year or less. They can't afford to buy a home. This decimates the construction industry and takes a huge amount of vital wages out of the economy. In this era of Passivhaus, Zero Energy Homes and "Green Building it would seem that there is a huge market out there to retrofit and upgarde existing homes (but then again, they can't afford that either even though it would save big bucks in the long run.)
By snakeoil
#40246
New Jersey's middle class...New Jersey has issued only 24% of the Hurricane Sandy funds allocated by Congress; even though it's been over a year and a half since the disaster.

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